16-06-2005 22:12									#481
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Shall we sound out the Angels re: trading PE for MMI, and they build the AV and we build the CF? (ie, we tell them we'll stall trading PE to Morgan)

They might just buy that, as the AV is worth a lot more to them than the CF, I'd imagine (I mean, we'd rather have the AV ourselves), but the CF is OK for us too, with its insta bio-enhancement centers

	16-06-2005 22:16									#482
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Yes I think we should suggest that asap, and if they disagree we should seriously consider building the Ascetic Virtues ourselves.

	16-06-2005 22:44									#483
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Posted this to the Embassy:

quote: Posted by googlie in the Embassy Might the Data Angels be interested in a straight exchange of Planetary Economics for Mind-Machine Interface? If so, we'll stall our discussions with Morgan on trading them PE, which would let the Angels proceed with the build of the Ascetic Virtues SP We, of course, would still like to build the Cyborg Factory, as we do see that ultimately we will be the faction to stare Yang down to get the Hive out of the game, so the CF is an almost must for us. So any deal would be contingent on the Angels changing your SP build from the CF to the AV, and letting the Federation complete the CF Interested?

	18-06-2005 00:32									#484
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Hmm - I wonder if there's a way we can get the University to build the AV, then extort the base from Zak?

If the Angels don't bite on the PE deal, why don't we contact Kody when we first get our 2176 turn and see if he can use his Codicil program to enter the game, go to the Uni, and change the production of one of their bases to the AV, then exit back to our turn (I think it can be done - I did it last year with the Believers to stop them with their colony pod rush tactic)

The rationale is that they are submissive to us, and if a human-controlled faction would accept our research suggestions and our build orders, then so should an AI contolled faction that's submissive.

Then we can send the ginfreighter and a couple oif crawlers to that base to rush the SP.

Whether or not we subsequently try to extort that base from the Uni is moot for the time being

	18-06-2005 03:32									#485
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quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen Yes I think we should suggest that asap, and if they disagree we should seriously consider building the Ascetic Virtues ourselves.

Inventing a casus belli: They still haven't recognized the University protectorate status...

	18-06-2005 11:12									#486
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I think the Angels' failure to respond is reason enough.

	19-06-2005 15:02									#487
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie The rationale is that they are submissive to us, and if a human-controlled faction would accept our research suggestions and our build orders, then so should an AI contolled faction that's submissive.

Well that is reasonable, and it would be ideal. But imagine the floodgates this would open up. It's a slippery slope if you allow this once. There would need to be a framework of rules or people could start requesting to control individual units.

quote: Inventing a casus belli: They still haven't recognized the University protectorate status...

Anybody else have an opinion on stealing the AV? It's a very important decision and it needs to be made asap imo. A casus belli is vital of course, for roleplaying purposes

	19-06-2005 18:45									#488
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quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen Anybody else have an opinion on stealing the AV? It's a very important decision and it needs to be made asap imo. A casus belli is vital of course, for roleplaying purposes

Against!
Violating a deal about an SP and invading their pact brother at the same time is asking for trouble!

Though...if they declare vendetta after we invade Lal, we won't be bound anymore by the deal.
So, I'd say we prepare to do it in case they retaliate to the Operation PW

	19-06-2005 19:55									#489
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quote: Originally posted by vishniac Against! Violating a deal about an SP and invading their pact brother at the same time is asking for trouble!

But on close examination, what trouble? An Angel invasion? Cessation of fruitful technological trades? All we really stand to lose is our trade income. Perhaps the gains are larger?

	19-06-2005 21:41									#490
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I'm also against stealing the AV unless the Angels declare war on us first. My primary fear is an Angel invasion of former PK land. We wouldn't have a very strong foothold down there for a few turns (we'd need a few more needlejets and probes, imo). Instead, my suggestion is to turn the entire Arcadian continent into a sort of "Fortress Arcadia", if you will, before we do too much to agitate the Angels.

	19-06-2005 23:44									#491
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quote: Originally posted by vishniac So, I'd say we prepare to do it in case they retaliate to the Operation PW

Ahh... Preparing a casus belli, and making them jump on it. Perfect.

	20-06-2005 01:20									#492
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quote: Originally posted by Zeiter I'm also against stealing the AV unless the Angels declare war on us first. My primary fear is an Angel invasion of former PK land. We wouldn't have a very strong foothold down there for a few turns (we'd need a few more needlejets and probes, imo). Instead, my suggestion is to turn the entire Arcadian continent into a sort of "Fortress Arcadia", if you will, before we do too much to agitate the Angels.

I hadn't even thought of that, good thinking But do you really think the Angels have a large standing army ready to pounce at us? Remember, we will have an entire invasion army in the area. The noodles will be damaged I guess, but it will still take a considerable for to do any damage by violence.

Probe teams though, that's a different issue I guess. They could have a few of those standing by ready to wreak havoc on us.

But I doubt it, I'm guessing all the other factions are tied up building infrastructure.

	20-06-2005 01:29									#493
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quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen Probe teams though, that's a different issue I guess. They could have a few of those standing by ready to wreak havoc on us.

Could we see their Probes if they were keeping them inside Lal's bases? Does the infiltration provide that info? And even if they are not in bases, I suppose they could be hiding close enough for action...

	20-06-2005 02:12									#494
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Could we see their Probes if they were keeping them inside Lal's bases? Does the infiltration provide that info? And even if they are not in bases, I suppose they could be hiding close enough for action...

Yeah I'm sure we could see any units they have in their bases. As for others hiding close enough, we could use some spare fuel from our noodles to check the nearby fungus and stuff like that to buy some insurance.

	20-06-2005 06:57									#495
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quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen Well that is reasonable, and it would be ideal. But imagine the floodgates this would open up. It's a slippery slope if you allow this once. There would need to be a framework of rules or people could start requesting to control individual units.

I think that a case could be made for directing a submissive in certain areas, but leaving them autonomy on others:

for example - use the codicil to:

• set SE choices
  
• Direct research
  
• start megaproject SP's
  
• declare war or accept truce or treaty (although in the latter event, I believe that they would follow our direction in-game)

	20-06-2005 07:06									#496
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This in the Embassy from Forester:

quote: Posted by the Angels in our Embassy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Spartans We thank you for your concern; however our situation has not changed. ForesterSOF DA Ambasador

Clearly no interest in dealing on their part

(But I agree with an earlier comment - do we really need the Cyborg Factory - or do we just need a bio-enhancement center in a few key basse that will churn out our troops, and in another two or three that will produce our aircrew? (maybe the same few bases)

	20-06-2005 21:25									#497
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I feel very uneasy about abusing the codicil like that. I don't think it would help us anyways. If we want the AV (or at least want to keep it out of the hands of the Angels), we should just go ahead and build it ourselves. Using codicil to force a submissive to build it would be even more devious than just stealing it outright. The codicil route would harm our reputation much more, actually.

A less devious way to snag the AV would be to declare war on Lal and get the Angels to autodeclare war on us. If they don't make peace within one year, we build the AV.

Last edited by Zeiter on 21-06-2005 at 01:51

	20-06-2005 21:41									#498
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quote: Originally posted by Zeiter A less devious way to snag the AV would be to declare war on Zak and get the Angels to autodeclare war on us. If they don't make peace within one year, we build the AV.

Declare war on Zak (University)? Did you mean Lal (Peacekeepers), by any chance?

As to the Cyborg Factory, I think we can do without. Aerospace Complexes seem to be working just fine for the aircraft we have. The thing this solution does is inevitably stalling some builds in the chosen bases, something that could be avoided with the Secret Project.

	21-06-2005 00:11									#499
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 . The thing this solution does is inevitably stalling some builds in the chosen bases, something that could be avoided with the Secret Project.

The other thing this solution does is letting someone else having bio-enhancement centers at every base just in time for their military build-up!

	21-06-2005 02:05									#500
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Ah, yes, I meant Lal.

I was thinking, the Angels must have a pretty good research rate, considering how long it took them to research MMI (not that long at all. What, a few years, maybe?)

Concerning the AV, if we are planning on going to PS soon (which I think would be an excellent idea once we have a bunch of size 14 bases. We could quell 9 drones at each city with CDFs), then the police bonus won't be worth much of anything. And I don't think the difference between size 14 bases with 1 non-worker and size 16 bases with 3 non-workers is going to be all that pivotal.

Say, don't we still have the capability of snagging the NA? Surely that would help with our worm hunting program. Why don't we go for it, if it's just laying there?

	21-06-2005 06:33									#501
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We need neural grafting for the Neural Amplifier - and yes, only Lal has started it

The big advantage of the CF is the +2 morale for every military unit built (army, navy, airforce), which means instant Elite troops and naval units (the CF's +2 morale gets combined with the +2 morale from the Command Nexus and the MCC)

Plus, every native lifeform gets a +1 lifecycle bonus when produced from any base

Sure, we can replicate that effect by building bioenhancement centers at, say 2 of our our 3 bases with aerospaces, 2 coastal bases and 2 inland bases, and use them as our barracks bases/naval academy/air training centers. But 6 bioenhancement centers costs 600 minerals - the CF costs 400 minerals

	13-07-2005 19:49									#502
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GeoModder has visited yesterday. He told me the Angels don't appreciate a probe being near their coasts.

	23-07-2005 10:17									#503
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quote: Posted in the Embassy To: The Data Angels From: The Spartan Federation We were surprised and perturbed to see your aircraft blocking the access road between UN Health Authority and UN Temple of Sol, despite our announcement to all factions of our intent to remove the Peacekeeper menace from Planet. Indeed, some Junta members see this as an overtly hostile act on the part of the Data Angels, but that is not (yet) our official position. We will expect that aircraft to have returned next year to an Angels' base, and that you will neither be blocking our advance into UN Temple of Sol by replacing it with another unit, nor impeding our entry into that base by stationing Angels' assets in the base itself. The Junta would consider either action to be severe provocation, destroying many years of trust and co-operation painstakingly built between our factions. We trust that you appreciate our position Colonel Googlie, on behalf of the Junta

	23-07-2005 12:13									#505
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Hehe.

	30-07-2005 11:08									#506
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Poested in the Embassy today:

quote: Posted by IT Mart To Spartan Federation, One of our guardians of a Summer Youth Camp reported that a group of his students mysteriously dissappeared. He is extremely concerned, as he suspects the boys might yet again pull some nasty excess. He thinks they might attempt to meet with some friends from Peacekeeper territory. Would you happen to have any information on their whereabouts? And on some more serious matter. Our general Trade Advisor reported that our mutual commercial exchange has stopped due to apparent vendetta. Is this true? Sincerely, IT Mart

and this in reply:

quote: Posted in the Embassy by Googlie Dear IT Mart: Regrettably, it is indeed true that our two factions are in vendetta. Angels probe operatives were sighted in Sparta territory, and the usual treaty-partner response (interrogation, and send back shamefacedly from whence they came) was not available to us as your Prime Function had seen fit to stack probe teams, rendering that choice of response unavailable. We were in a quandary. Let them be, and have them infiltrate our newly liberated base of Aid Station - or worse, have one or more of our valuable technologies pilfered - or eliminate them, incurring an automatic vendetta declaration in the prcess. The Junta deliberated long and hard on this difficult choice. The decision point was reached when one of our officers posed the question: "What would the Data Angels do if they awoke one morning and found two Spartan Probe teams in the outskirts of one of their bases?" Clearly, you would not stand for it, and would likewise have taken whatever steps necessary to have them removed. And, if stacked, then their destruction becomes the only choice. So with a heavy heart the Junta approved their elimination as a threat to our security, and to reinforce the inviolability of our borders. Vendetta resulted. We have, however, suggested in the diplomatic pouches that we restore treaty status. We have no quarrel with the Data Angels. Indeed, you have left us alone to hone our fighting skills on Arcadia before the inevitable conflict with the irascible Chairman Yang. For that we thank you. But this latest action of your Prime Function left us somewhat bemused. As a result, the status of our inter-faction relations has been severly degraded. But we trust that this is not irreparable. Sincerely, Colonel Googlie

	30-07-2005 12:24									#507
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In short: They asked for it.

Last edited by Modo44 on 30-07-2005 at 12:33

	30-07-2005 12:37									#508
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Hmm, no mention nor explanation that we've built the AV... Will be a pretty slap in the face for them!

Now, we'll see whether they're scared of us or not.

	03-08-2005 04:54									#509
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Hmmm again ..... they have now moved the turn on to Morgan, with nary a chirp to us on the vendetta, the killed probes, our building the AV, et al.

In fact, it seems for the last 10 years or so there has been a conscious effort on the part of all 3 factions just to ignore Sparta. They don't answer our commlink queries, or our posts in the embassy. (The only one was Mart's inquiry of us if what he heard was true, that our 2 factions were in vendetta)

What to make of it? ....................

	03-08-2005 07:16									#510
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Low activity levels? Or maybe the others are already so resolved as to their course of action against us (vendetta) that they aren't even bothering to negotiate with us.