14-10-2004 09:10									#61
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I'm getting slow in my old age. I just noticed the typo in the thread title, and the poster who made the post. We know what's on his mind.

	14-10-2004 09:11									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov So a guy who orchestrated the attack of 9/11--amongst other attacks--wasn't a threat to the U.S.?

not at the time Bush made that statement. No he was not a threat. He ceased to be a threat around November of 2001 I believe.

And there are those that believe Bin Ladin was not responsible for 9/11, and Dick Cheney and John Ashcroft were responsible for it.

	14-10-2004 09:14									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident not at the time Bush made that statement. No he was not a threat. He ceased to be a threat around November of 2001 I believe.

And the case for this is what? Did you believe he wasn't a threat after the WTC bombing in 1993? The USS Cole bombing? The Kenyan embassy bombings?

Does the fact that Al Queda was able to strike in Spain, Malaysia and Egypt (perhaps) with such deadliness in more recent times not make you think they just might still be able to penetrate here?

quote: And there are those that believe Bush was not responsible for 9/11, and Dick Cheney and John Ashcroft were responsible for it.

What is the point of this utter non-sequitur?

	14-10-2004 09:15									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov So a guy who orchestrated the attack of 9/11--amongst other attacks--wasn't a threat to the U.S.?

The level of personal implication by OBL still hasn't been demonstrated. 9/11 could very well have happened without his help or direct financial support. There is a huge gap between illiterate Afghans going to training camps in the middle of the desert, living a nomadic lifestyle, and those few "soldiers" who actually went to America. There is no strong evidence that the eradication of the former will correlatively lead to a diminution of the threat posed by the latter.

Even with OBL dead, do you really think that the likelyness of a terrorist attack in America will decrease?

	14-10-2004 09:16									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov And the case for this is what? Did you believe he wasn't a threat after the WTC bombing in 1993? The USS Cole bombing? The Kenyan embassy bombings? Does the fact that Al Queda was able to strike in Spain, Malaysia and Egypt (perhaps) with such deadliness in more recent times not make you think they just might still be able to penetrate here? What is the point of this utter non-sequitur?

November 2001 is the date I put there. Not December of 2000 (after the Cole attack)

As for the recent attacks, I believe they were organized by someone else. Al Quida will go on, but without Bin Ladin.

	14-10-2004 09:16									#66
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Mark Shields made an interesting observation- essentially that the vote an incumbent president gets come election day is almost always, if not always, indentical to what the president got in the last polls as his support- according to him this was true for Carter, Reagan, Bush Sr. and Clinton.

If this is true, it will be interesting to see where Bush's poll numbers are on Oct 30. If he is at 48% at that point, things will be EXTREMELY close.

	14-10-2004 09:18									#67
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Did you just say that Osama Bin Ladin is no longer a threat? The fact that he hasn't been killed or captured makes him a threat for two reasons: 1.) He can (and all signs point to "is") still plot against the United States - 2.) He is a symbol to the Islamist terror movement. To deny that he's still a threat is silly.

	14-10-2004 09:18									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris The level of personal implication by OBL still hasn't been demonstrated. 9/11 could very well have happened without his help or direct financial support. There is a huge gap between illiterate Afghans going to training camps in the middle of the desert, living a nomadic lifestyle, and those few "soldiers" who actually went to America. There is no strong evidence that the eradication of the former will correlatively lead to a diminution of the threat posed by the latter. Even with OBL dead, do you really think that the likelyness of a terrorist attack in America will decrease?

9/11 was pathetically easy. People act like this was a well coordinated strategic attack. All he did was look at the internet to find some flights on large planes travelling accross country at the same time.

Taking over aircraft was very easy at the time. Even I could do it.

	14-10-2004 09:18									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Even with OBL dead, do you really think that the likelyness of a terrorist attack in America will decrease?

Not substantially at first, but the moral blow to his partisans plus the moral boost to the west would be considerable. The fact is that Bin Laden was charismatic draw for AQ, and were it demonstrated the U.S. killed him, it would be considered a major victory in the terror war. Half of the war is, after all, propaganda.

	14-10-2004 09:19									#70
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Did you just say that Osama Bin Ladin is no longer a threat? The fact that he hasn't been killed or captured makes him a threat for two reasons: 1.) He can (and all signs point to "is") still plot against the United States - 2.) He is a symbol to the Islamist terror movement. To deny that he's still a threat is silly.

perhaps you guys are right.

I'm just trying to figure out what Bush was thinking. It's the only possible thing I can come up with.

	14-10-2004 09:22									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident November 2001 is the date I put there. Not December of 2000 (after the Cole attack)

The point is that Bin Laden has never just orchestrated an attack and gone away. He has never ceased to be a threat after an attack. That's the kind of thinking that leads to more attacks.

If you think Bin Laden still isn't plotting AQ moves, I'd say you're being quite naive.

	14-10-2004 09:24									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I'm just trying to figure out what Bush was thinking. It's the only possible thing I can come up with.

I'll tell you exactly what he was thinking:

"I have to discount the Bin Laden threat because I want people to think Saddam is the real danger."

Pretty simple, actually.

	14-10-2004 09:24									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov The point is that Bin Laden has never just orchestrated an attack and gone away. He has never ceased to be a threat after an attack. That's the kind of thinking that leads to more attacks. If you think Bin Laden still isn't plotting AQ moves, I'd say you're being quite naive.

as I've said. I'm stretching here. I'm just trying to figure out what the hell Bush was talking about.

But you have to admit taking over Afghanistan and capturing 75% of Al Quida leaders has helped in the war on terror and has to have decreased the threat on America.

	14-10-2004 09:26									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident But you have to admit taking over Afghanistan and capturing 75% of Al Quida leaders has helped in the war on terror and has to have decreased the threat on America.

The U.S. and the new government control about 10% of Afghanistan. The rest are warlords, many of them AQ sympathizers.

The 75% number is bull, that was pointed out quickly after Bush tried to use it. We have no idea what percentage of AQ leadership we've taken out, and certainly the propaganda of the Iraq war has helped replenish their ranks.

	14-10-2004 09:27									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Not substantially at first, but the moral blow to his partisans plus the moral boost to the west would be considerable. The fact is that Bin Laden was charismatic draw for AQ, and were it demonstrated the U.S. killed him, it would be considered a major victory in the terror war. Half of the war is, after all, propaganda.

Perhaps, but the fundamentalist Muslim cause in general has many symbols to draw upon, and I suppose many local-level leaders (how many El-Sadrs are they?), so that the death of Bin Laden could very well fuel the terrorist cause or at best have an insignificant effect.

Not that I wholly disagree with the idea of getting him, but I think that the best way to hunt terrorists without charging against windmills is to undermine their revenue sources with a strong financial police, and then think about positively influencing the political situation in the ME. Spending billions to secure wastelands in the middle of nowhere doesn't sound like something that should be a priority.

	14-10-2004 09:28									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident no, it's because Bin Ladin didn't and still doesn't pose any threat to the United States.

No terrorists will attack mainland US in the next decade.

	14-10-2004 09:29									#77
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Enough with the threadjack

	14-10-2004 09:30									#78
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Enough with the threadjack

But the Red Sox lost!

	14-10-2004 09:32									#79
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Anyone else think that the Republican efforts to label Kerry as a liberal are pathetic? The worse is that I'm affraid SUV mom could fall for it.

	14-10-2004 09:33									#80
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It's a valid point, but he repeated it too many times

	14-10-2004 09:37									#81
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I mean it's just a tautology. Well duh he's a liberal - why don't you attack his ideas if that's so bad? Let's hope that no one will fall for it, but this might be wishful thinking when you look at the overall quality of opinion pieces in the media.

Ideological hijacks playing on the moral connotation of words

	14-10-2004 09:37									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Anyone else think that the Republican efforts to label Kerry as a liberal are pathetic? The worse is that I'm affraid SUV mom could fall for it.

SUV moms fall for everything

	14-10-2004 09:50									#83
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CNN talking heads are talking like Kerry has a legimate shot at this election.

I actually think bush will win comfortably- it won't be a blowout, but it shouldn't have problems like in 2000.

	14-10-2004 09:54									#84
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IMO, this was a decisive victory for John Kerry. Bush may have scored more "points" in this debate, but on two key Grounds I thought Kerry won. For one thing, in talking about the bread and butter issues such as outsourcing, health care, and generally the whole middle class squeeze, Kerry came out alot stronger with alot more populist point. If you're an Ohio voter who isn't doing so well or you're neighbors aren't doing so well, I think Kerry came out with a much stronger message. Moreover, with his repetition that he will not place our security in the hands of foreign leaders, he helps himself on national security. Bush did a better job on taxes, but I don't think that is a big issue with undecided voters.

	14-10-2004 09:57									#85
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Both candidates bored me. The only new thing I heard before I decided to go play Civ instead was the min wage thing by Kerry. $7 ain't enough, but it's significantly closer to a living wage than anything we've had in twenty years (the living wage was $7.69 in 1996, the amount needed by one wage earner to keep a family of four above the poverty level).

	14-10-2004 10:01									#86
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Living wage.

Stupid economic equillibrium charts and theories be damned.

	14-10-2004 10:05									#87
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The raising of the min. wage is always followed by an economic expansion. When you put more money in the pockets of the poorest workers, they spend it, which means businesses need to hire more workers to make more products, which means more wage earners spending more money.

	14-10-2004 10:06									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris But the Red Sox lost!

	14-10-2004 10:08									#89
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Absolutely right, Che. If Bush had raised the minimum wage, instead of cutting taxes on investment, he probably would've achieved net job growth during his administration.

	14-10-2004 10:09									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Moral Hazard Bush's homosexuality answer was well crafted. He can't come out and say it isn't a choice and lose a good deal of Christians. He also can't say it is a choice and lose a large portion of the swing vote. Kerry did a good job with his answer as well, since he isn't going to get the fundie vote anyway. Who won I don't know. Both Candidates bugged me, I score it even because I wasn't paying much attention to style. Kerry bugs me more and more. Still planning on voting for him, I guess.

It was stupid double talk.

To profess that you "tolerate" gays while trying to avoid saying anything deragatory about gays. He obviously could not dare to express how he truly feels about gays.


EDIT: I am referring to Bush in this post.