 |
|
JimmyCracksCorn
|
|
Macedonia - Sovereign country north of Greece.
Dec 2002
time: 05:21
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by The diplomat
But if you go to Factcheck.org, you'll see that Kerry completely distorted the numbers on jobs, the deficit, pell grants, and the economy. So, I don't see how people can say that Kerry is strong on domestic issues. He can't even get his facts right on the number of jobs lost or created. |
Please point out some numbers for us then...
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Ramo
|
 |
Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:21
|
|
Stylistically, Bush clearly won; on substance, it was a slight Kerry victory. The reason I say that that is the question on Roe v. Wade, where he simply didn't take a stand. There were a few other situations like that, where he didn't take a position or took an anemic one (i.e. on the assault weapons ban). If "angry" characterized him in the second debate, "equivicator" would characterize him this time.
quote:
Not to mention that people mention Bush lies, but Kerry lied a lot too. The biggest lie was probably his claim that Bush never met with the Black Caucus or the Civil Rights groups. How can someone who lied so many times be considered the winner of the debate? |
Kerry was right about the NAACP. Regarding the CBC, Bush only met them when they showed up in the WH; he refused to invite them. So, while a lie on Kerry's part, not a particularly big one. Certainly not comparable to the OBL gaffe.
The polls are interesting. Take the Democracy Corps poll for instance:
Kerry picked up half of the undecideds (2%), making his lead 3%.
On some of the issues (healthcare, SS), Bush went up slightly, and on others (security related) Kerry went up slightly; the biggest were Bush going up 6% on education, relative to Kerry (still giving Kerry a 6% lead), and Kerry going up by 7% on having clear plans (giving him a 4% lead).
Last edited by Ramo on 14-10-2004 at 19:50
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Dis
|
 |
Las Vegas, Nevada
Feb 2000
time: 21:21
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ramo
Stylistically, Bush clearly won; on substance, it was a slight Kerry victory. The reason I say that that is the question on Roe v. Wade, where he simply didn't take a stand. There were a few other situations like that, where he didn't take a position or took an anemic one (i.e. on the assault weapons ban). If "angry" characterized him in the second debate, "equivicator" would characterize him this time.
quote:
Not to mention that people mention Bush lies, but Kerry lied a lot too. The biggest lie was probably his claim that Bush never met with the Black Caucus or the Civil Rights groups. How can someone who lied so many times be considered the winner of the debate? |
Kerry was right about the NAACP. Regarding the CBC, Bush only met them when they showed up in the WH; he refused to invite them. So, while a lie on Kerry's part, not a particularly big one. Certainly not comparable to the OBL gaffe.
The polls are interesting. Take the Democracy Corps poll for instance:
Kerry picked up half of the undecideds (2%), making his lead 3%.
On some of the issues (healthcare related), Bush went up slightly, and on others (security related) Kerry went up slightly; the biggest were Bush going up 6% on education, relative to Kerry (still giving Kerry a 6% lead), and Kerry going up by 7% on having clear plans (giving him a 4% lead). |
I agree with Bush on not meeting with the NAACP. They used to be a great organization. But they are largely inneffective now days. And actually detrimental in other ways.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Drachasor
|
|
There is some truth in all those accounts, though he shouldn't distort things as he has done. Bush has also done some heavy distorting though.
I'd like to see your pell grant info, because I can't find anything saying that is wrong.
If you want to take a look at the facts, let's see who actually was lying more of the time. Something you have to bear in mind is that Bush cited so few facts, that naturally Kerry will probably seem to lie, but that's just because Bush was barely specific on anything and didn't answer job questions.
quote:
I have got a comprehensive strategy to not only chase down the Al Qaida, wherever it exists — and we're making progress; three-quarters of Al Qaida leaders have been brought to justice — but to make sure that countries that harbor terrorists are held to account. |
This is a lie, we have only caught 75% of the leaders that we knew existed on 9/11. There are a lot more leaders now.
quote:
My opponent just this weekend talked about how terrorism could be reduced to a nuisance, comparing it to prostitution, illegal gambling. I think that attitude and that point of view is dangerous. I don't think you can secure America for the long run if you don't have a comprehensive view as to how to defeat these people. |
Non-sequitor. Just because Kerry says he wants to reduce the threat of terrorism, it doesn't mean he doesn't understand the current problem. At least they aren't saying Kerry said he thought terrorism is a nuisance; they were doing that earlier this week.
quote:
At home, we'll do everything we can to protect the homeland. I signed the homeland security bill to better align our assets and resources. My opponent voted against it. |
We'll give him the truth on this, but it is questionable wether Homeland Security is funded enough (it probably isn't).
quote:
We're doing everything we can to protect our borders and ports. |
This is an out and out lie.
quote:
Gosh, I just don't think I ever said I'm not worried about Osama bin Laden. It's kind of one of those exaggerations. |
Lie.
quote:
Of course we're worried about Osama bin Laden. We're on the hunt after Osama bin Laden. We're using every asset at our disposal to get Osama bin Laden. |
Lie.
quote:
My opponent said this war is a matter of intelligence and law enforcement. |
True enough, Kerry said it was primarily an intelligence and law enforcement problem, and added that we must use allies to bring it to bear on it.
quote:
No, this war is a matter of using every asset at our disposal to keep the American people protected. |
This is an exaggeration, imho, but I won't count it as an out-and-out lie.
quote:
Bob, we relied upon a company out of England to provide about half of the flu vaccines for the United States citizen, and it turned out that the vaccine they were producing was contaminated. And so we took the right action and didn't allow contaminated medicine into our country. |
Britain is the nation that suspended production and decided the flu vaccines we too contaminated.
quote:
We have a problem with litigation in the United States of America. Vaccine manufacturers are worried about getting sued, and therefore they have backed off from providing this kind of vaccine. |
This is not at all the reason why vaccines are hardly ever produced by our companies. They simply don't find it economical and prefer in almost all cases to treat symptoms and use other medications which require continual use (makes them more money). It's a profit-motive issue, but not the one Bush has stated.
quote:
He just said he wants everybody to be able to buy in to the same plan that senators and congressmen get. That costs the government $7,700 per family. If every family in America signed up, like the senator suggested, if would cost us $5 trillion over 10 years. |
Blatant or horrible distortion. Bush didn't even use the biased studies that have been done, yet alone a non-biased one.
quote:
He been a senator for 20 years. He voted to increase taxes 98 times. When they tried to reduce taxes, he voted against that 127 times. He talks about being a fiscal conservative, or fiscally sound, but he voted over — he voted 277 times to waive the budget caps, which would have cost the taxpayers $4.2 trillion. |
Distortion (they count votes to end debate and other such procedural matters as voting for higher taxes). Also doesn't compare to the times he voted for lower taxes. (According to Kerry--he's probably using the same distortion Bush is, but that's pragmatic).
quote:
He's proposed $2.2 trillion of new spending, and yet the so-called tax on the rich, which is also a tax on many small-business owners in America, raises $600 million by our account — billion, $800 billion by his account.
There is a tax gap. And guess who usually ends up filling the tax gap? The middle class. |
This doesn't seem to make sense to me. There is a gap in two estimates, so someone has to fill that gap? I suppose he is saying his estimate is better, but independent groups have shown that Kerry's proposal for what he is implementing for health care will be paid for the way he says.
quote:
propose a detailed budget, Bob. I sent up my budget man to the Congress, and he says, here's how we're going to reduce the deficit in half by five years. It requires pro-growth policies that grow our economy and fiscal sanity in the halls of Congress. |
Bush also has no fiscal sanity; he can't veto any spending bill for some reason. He's misrepresenting his own record.
quote:
I'd say, Bob, I've got policies to continue to grow our economy and create the jobs of the 21st century. And here's some help for you to go get an education. Here's some help for you to go to a community college. |
As you can see throughout the debate, Bush never answers a question on jobs. He talks about education when such questions come up.
quote:
We've expanded trade adjustment assistance. We want to help pay for you to gain the skills necessary to fill the jobs of the 21st century. |
True, he did sign a bill into law on this.
On no child left behind, it is true he raised money on education, so we will also give him that (though it is debateable wether it was raised enough).
So Bush does tell a lot of lies, but he also spends a lot of time not detailing anything specific (one can still catch him on a few things). I will continue as needed looking at what he said in the debate.
-Drachasor
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Drachasor
|
|
My look into the Pell Grant data so far indicates Kerry was quite possibly correct in general. Funding for Pell Grants seems to be lower, and individuals seem to be getting less money.
-Drachasor
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Drachasor
|
|
Oh, and while Kerry may have gotten some of his facts wrong, or didn't fully flesh out some numbers, on his policy issues he looks like he was quite correct.
Anyhow, I stand by my position that Bush has consistently distanced himself from the working class in each debate, whereas Kerry has demonstrated a concern for what they are worred about (Bush acts like their worries don't exist). This is one large reason that will probably have Kerry win.
Oh, and if Kerry, in retrospect, one the second debate according to Gallup, then there is no way in heck he won't win this one.
-Drachasor
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:21.
Apolyton Time is 00:21. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
14-10-2004 18:14
|