15-10-2004 16:48									#1
	Cheney Outrage...Or Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The elephant in the living room?

Why are the Cheney's outraged about the mention of their daughter in the debate? Lynne says it was a dirty political trick... What was gained? Oh yeah, some Republicans might not vote for Bush because of Cheney's lesbian daughter? Save some of that outrage for them... That's an admission the Cheney's cater to people just a couple steps from the Taliban...

But she is right, it was a dirty trick... I doubt it was a coincidence both Kerry and Edwards would emphasise the Cheney family and I was surprised to see Kerry do it after Edwards. How do Democrats feel about Kerry and Edwards pulling a George Bush on John McCain? For those who don't know, the Bush campaign spread rumors during the S Carolina primary that McCain had a black daughter. He and his wife adopted a kid from Bangladesh. Now it looks like the Dems have done the same thing to Cheney and Bush - poetic justice or sleazy politicians?

	15-10-2004 16:58									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Though I don't like these kind of dirty politics, there are two major differences IMO.

- AFAIK McCain's daughter was still a kid, while - I assume - Cheney's daughter is an adult.

- The MaCain one was a well fabricated ( Rove K.^tm) whisper campaign, while this isn't.

	15-10-2004 17:00									#3
	Increase Your PM Length

Yes, it's outrageous that people wouldn't vote for Bush because Cheney's daughter is a lesbian.

	15-10-2004 17:23									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I find the Cheney's "outrage" amazingly hypocritical and just a tad phoney. Could it be political posturing? Maybe!

During the GOP convention, Republican senate candidate Alan Keyes explicitely called Mary Cheney a "selfish hedonist" in an interview because she was gay. Did Lynne Cheney step up and defend her daughter with her outrage? No, not a peep. The only thing you got from the Cheney's was a sister saying she wouldn't comment on the issue.

Now, Kerry says positive things about Mary Cheney, and it's outrageous? Why, because it highlights the hypocrisy of Cheney's tacit approval for Bush's anti-gay pandering? That seems to be the case.

As for Mary Cheney, she's an adult who is openly gay, openly activist for gay causes and openly activist for the GOP. So I don't see where any "outrage" can be had by envoking her name in a positive context for gay rights. If it also happens to piss off the bigot wing of the Republican Party, all the better.

	15-10-2004 17:41									#5
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Could it be political posturing? Maybe!

Maybe, Maybe
YA THINK,

You take what you're given. So when somebody lays up the softball, you hit it. I wasn't outraged about them bringing it up, but I did think it was a bit tacky. Especially using it twice. So they ought to take a bit of S**T.

	15-10-2004 17:42									#6
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Is there nothing else to tackle in Kerry's performance in the debate but that one remark? Is this just a smoke screen to distract people from Bush's OBL gaffe? Makes you go hmmm.

	15-10-2004 17:47									#7
	Remove this text

Yeah it's crazy

BTW, gotta love some of the pics from georgewbush.com

	15-10-2004 17:51									#8
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by rah Maybe, Maybe YA THINK, You take what you're given. So when somebody lays up the softball, you hit it. I wasn't outraged about them bringing it up, but I did think it was a bit tacky. Especially using it twice. So they ought to take a bit of S**T.

Yeah definately agree, the lesbian reference came waaaay out of left-field in the debate and I don't know what Kerry was trying to do with it. But the Republican outrage over this is just surreal, after all unless you think that there is something horribly wrong with being a lesbian why does it make any sense for complain about someone calling someone a lesbian???

	15-10-2004 18:04									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

There was a comment made by the pundits (I dont remember which ones) that there was a big negative reaction by the undecided voters (being monitored during the debate) when Kerry made this remark.

	15-10-2004 18:06									#10
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by rah Maybe, Maybe YA THINK, You take what you're given. So when somebody lays up the softball, you hit it. I wasn't outraged about them bringing it up, but I did think it was a bit tacky. Especially using it twice. So they ought to take a bit of S**T.

Agreed. What I find disturbing is not so much the facts of the point but moreso the inclusion of children into the debate. It has been a long standing unwritten rule that the CANDIDATES THEMSELVES do not dare to presume to bring opponents children into the political debate. To do so violates the above the fray statesman like image candidates try to portray. While the Rovian McCain whisper campaign was putrid it did not directly implicate Bush as the espouser of the dirty trick. Hence the reason this gives the appearance of greater tackiness as it was comitted by both Edwards & Kerry.

The real issue to me tho' as to whether any offense should be taken is not the outrage of mom and dad Cheney but whether Mary Cheney felt the attention drawn to her was unwelcome as she is an adult. If so then, she being the real victim of this lack of tact has a real point to slam Kerry & Edwards.

	15-10-2004 18:45									#11
	Got spare money?

I saw the tape of Lynne Cheney's reaction to what Kerry did. I thought that she was genuinely upset. Very upset.

Kerry out to simply apologize to the Cheney's and to Mary to the extent the remark was tactless and caused offense.

	15-10-2004 18:47									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Is it possible that Mary Cheney became lesbian because of penis envy? She is the daughter of the country's greatest Dick, after all....

	15-10-2004 19:17									#13
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by axi Is it possible that Mary Cheney became lesbian because of penis envy? She is the daughter of the country's greatest Dick, after all....

Talking from experience?

	15-10-2004 19:53									#14
	Support Apolyton

I thought she was a lesbian because her mother was one

JM

	15-10-2004 20:09									#15
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I find the Cheney's "outrage" amazingly hypocritical and just a tad phoney. Could it be political posturing? Maybe! During the GOP convention, Republican senate candidate Alan Keyes explicitely called Mary Cheney a "selfish hedonist" in an interview because she was gay. Did Lynne Cheney step up and defend her daughter with her outrage? No, not a peep. The only thing you got from the Cheney's was a sister saying she wouldn't comment on the issue. Now, Kerry says positive things about Mary Cheney, and it's outrageous? Why, because it highlights the hypocrisy of Cheney's tacit approval for Bush's anti-gay pandering? That seems to be the case. As for Mary Cheney, she's an adult who is openly gay, openly activist for gay causes and openly activist for the GOP. So I don't see where any "outrage" can be had by envoking her name in a positive context for gay rights. If it also happens to piss off the bigot wing of the Republican Party, all the better.

I think you pretty much said what I was going to say.

	15-10-2004 20:16									#16
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov As for Mary Cheney, she's an adult who is openly gay, openly activist for gay causes and openly activist for the GOP. So I don't see where any "outrage" can be had by envoking her name in a positive context for gay rights. If it also happens to piss off the bigot wing of the Republican Party, all the better.

Has anyone bothered to ask Mary Cheney if she wished to be used as a political chew toy?

	15-10-2004 20:21									#17
	Inflate your Upload Space

Considering the fact the Cheney family's response to the Keyes idiocy, I don't think she does.

	15-10-2004 20:55									#18
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The "outrage" from the Cheney family is political posturing pure and simple..

Personally though, I do think it was tactless to metion Lynn by name, it is very obviously a tactic to remind right-wing biggots about it.

	15-10-2004 21:04									#19
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf Yeah it's crazy BTW, gotta love some of the pics from georgewbush.com

Great picture, it's making me want to vote Kerry/Edwards!

	15-10-2004 21:05									#20
	Support Apolyton

You like constipated leaders?

	15-10-2004 21:06									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

exactly

	15-10-2004 21:07									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

weird x-post there

	15-10-2004 21:08									#23
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I was hoping it was an x-post.

	15-10-2004 21:16									#24
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Personally, I don't think this was smart for Kerry because there was a chance that it would be done inartfully and look like it was an attack on Cheney's family. The idea of a whispering campaign is that you whisper rather than announce it outright in a debate.

By the way, I thought Edwards did a good job in mentioning it, but Kerry seemed pretty callous and calculating. It's just the roll of the dice sometimes on these issues.

	15-10-2004 21:24									#25
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Ned Kerry out to simply apologize to the Cheney's and to Mary to the extent the remark was tactless and caused offense.

I agree with y...

I think you're r....

That's also my opin....



Nope. Just can't do it...

	15-10-2004 21:28									#26
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by SpencerH There was a comment made by the pundits (I dont remember which ones) that there was a big negative reaction by the undecided voters (being monitored during the debate) when Kerry made this remark.

Interesting. I kinda cringed when Kerry said this. I felt it was over the line talking about the other guy's family. But this uneasiness was eclipsed after the debate by the Cheneys' manufactured outrage.

Mrs. Cheney's calling Kerry a "bad man" for mentioning her daughter has an unspoken assumption that being a having a lesbian as a daughter is something to be ashamed about.

VP Cheney's outrage is visually stunning when shown in juxtiposition with a video clip of his debate with Edwards, where Cheney thanks Edwards for complimenting the Cheneys on the reaction to their daughter being a lesbian.

Bottom line: Kerry shudda kept his mouth shut. The Cheneys shudda kept their mouths shut.

	15-10-2004 21:32									#27
	Remove this text

quote: The Cheneys shudda kept their mouths shut.

I think I agree with this. But the exposure of the Cheney response is not nearly as great as the comment, if only because many more people watched the debate than those who are hard-wired into the pundit and news industries.

	15-10-2004 21:59									#28
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I wonder if its a slip or if he did it on purpose. I wouldn't be surprised that Kerry just slipped. He seems like the kind of guy that just loves the sound of his own voice and that can bite you in the a** sometimes.

On the other hand, the kind of people who might care about this on the Republican side will never vote Democrat anyway. But it might influence 1000, 10 000, 20 000 of them to stay home in november maybe? When an election is as close as this one, you'll take watever you can get. I don't see a downside for Kerry on this one.

	15-10-2004 22:20									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Has anyone bothered to ask Mary Cheney if she wished to be used as a political chew toy?

I agree -- Mary's parents and other family need to stop using her as a political chew toy by blowing something that was meant to be respectful and considerate, out of proportion into something that was not.

	15-10-2004 22:28									#30
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

So... are they ashamed for their daughter being a lezzie? If not, then why the outrage. If yes, they should be ashamed of themselves.