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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by MrFun
You really are racist -- just admit it. Getting pass denial is one of the earliest steps in dealing with any serious problem one may have. |
I define "racism" as being something inseparable from hate. This is the way the word is most commonly used. I don't hate people of other races, therefore I am not racist.
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Drachasor
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
I define "racism" as being something inseparable from hate. This is the way the word is most commonly used. I don't hate people of other races, therefore I am not racist. |
quote:
rac·ism Audio pronunciation of "racism" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rszm)
n.
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Ming
And slavery helped perpetuate their position as a second class race, and magnified the prejudice... which still exists today. |
No doubt it played a significant part, but their behaviour also plays a part.
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A matter of opinion... it would have happened eventually... and they would have come over and started at the lowest rung of society like everybody else did... |
Well, as you said, it's a matter of opinion. Both of us are just speculating.
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You seem to imply that any gains they have made is due to the sympathy they get for having been slaves...
Now that's just plain silly... the gains they have made were earned through hard work and brains... the same as any other race. The problem is, that slavery gave them a lower starting point, and has hampered their growth and advancement... it sure as hell didn't help them. |
Yes, some of the gains were through hard work and brains, but without the freedom of western culture those intelligent Africans would not have had a chance to flourish. Slavery only gave them a lower starting point if you assume they would have come over here as free men anyway. If we make a different assumption - that they wouldn't have come over here as free men anyway - then the starting point is not lower than what they otherwise would have had.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by MrFun
By denigerating blacks as a backward people and by being a modern apologist for slavery, you most certainly are racist. |
No, you just don't understand.
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Patroklos
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Back home in good ole Norfolk VA
Dec 2001
time: 05:20
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The idea that the slave trade itself devestated Africa is stupid, especialy when you added the various kingdoms to the devestation.
1). 100 million is a fantastically outrageous number, care to support? Though 1/3 fatality rate for those actually transported seems right.
2). For the majority of the slave trade the European colonies supported nothing but isolated forts and outposts in Africa, which actually supported the kingdoms because....
3). They traded with the kingdoms for the slaves. It isn't like the the whities were running through the jungle with nets capturing slaves, because capturing indigineous populations in jungles worked great in Vietnam. The kingdoms themselves, which for some odd reason you seem to think were something special, were the drug dealers in this trade.
4). The major harm to Africa politically and economically was done during the later colonization phases, after most of the colonizers had already outlawed slavery. Not the topic of this thread.
And on another issue the notion that "most," or even half, or even 10% died from unnatural dealths is equally stupid. Even in the slave communities enduring the worst conditions, the islands, their is no profit in killing 90 million (excluding decendants) of your imaginary slave population for no reason.
Slavery was a horrible thing and apologizing for it is stupid, but equally stupid is magniflying it out of all historical evidence. Not sure why people feel the need to do this, Hilter was a bastard, no need to make him gay with S&M tendancies as well.
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Drachasor
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quote:
Originally posted by Patroklos
The idea that the slave trade itself devestated Africa is stupid, especialy when you added the various kingdoms to the devestation. |
No, it is true. That some elements of Africa willingly participated in this destruction is horrible, but to be fair they didn't have much of a choice.
quote:
Originally posted by Patroklos
1). 100 million is a fantastically outrageous number, care to support? Though 1/3 fatality rate for those actually transported seems right. |
It is possible the figure is a 50% fatality rate to those transported. Observers at the time reported such things anyhow.
quote:
Originally posted by Patroklos
2). For the majority of the slave trade the European colonies supported nothing but isolated forts and outposts in Africa, which actually supported the kingdoms because....
3). They traded with the kingdoms for the slaves. It isn't like the the whities were running through the jungle with nets capturing slaves, because capturing indigineous populations in jungles worked great in Vietnam. The kingdoms themselves, which for some odd reason you seem to think were something special, were the drug dealers in this trade. |
There was trading for slaves, but if they hadn't been sold, then the Europeans had already demonstrated they were quite willing to just take them by force. This wouldn't even have come up if it hadn't been for that; The europeans were very, very intent on getting slaves.
quote:
Originally posted by Patroklos
4). The major harm to Africa politically and economically was done during the later colonization phases, after most of the colonizers had already outlawed slavery. Not the topic of this thread. |
This really isn't entirely true at all. Though the colonization was horrible, the slave trade reduced the population growth rate by so much that by th mid-1800s it was estimated that there would have been twice as many Africans if the slave trade hadn't been in place. That's even more by now. The massive drain of man-power cannot be ignored.
quote:
Originally posted by Patroklos
And on another issue the notion that "most," or even half, or even 10% died from unnatural dealths is equally stupid. Even in the slave communities enduring the worst conditions, the islands, their is no profit in killing 90 million (excluding decendants) of your imaginary slave population for no reason. |
The larger issue with the slave trade here is how it destroyed the culture of the slaves. This cultural void has caused African Americans great problems as they have struggled to find their identity. Immigrants have never faced this problem.
-Drachasor
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Drachasor
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quote:
Originally posted by Patroklos
That is a very important part. The races are different, obviously they have skin color to support that, but if I don't believe that difference elevates or denegrates a group in any way then I am not a racist.
But according to Mr. Fun, because I believe blacks are different because they are more prone to sickle cell, I am now a racist  |
If you want you can tack on "unproven" to the definition. I'm fine with that. Some people in this thread do have unproven or outright wrong beliefs about blacks.
quote:
Originally posted by Patroklos
What is also not racist is judging culture. I will tell you right now that "black culture" is stupid and self defeating when averaged as a whole. But that is not a racial trait, it is a chose by millions of like minded individuals to embrace something. Because the main adherrents to that said culture are black, and they acutally voluntarily give it that label, is not a racial concern in the slightest. I equally think the members of my own race that adhere to said culture are stupid.
And while liberal facists will recoil in automatic programed horror to this statement, of all the people that divide and perpetuate the black poplation (and all races) of America as something distict and different there is one who do it overwhelming more than the others, and conciously so. Blacks. |
The only thing I recoil about in your statement is the idiotic point of view that people choose their culture.
The biggest problem conservatives have had throughout history is a huge misperception on human psychology.
Well, there is also the fact that not all African culture is bad. There are just some supremely bad examples to be seen.
-Drachasor
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Drachasor
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quote:
Originally posted by Gibsie
If slavery did significatly keep African numbers down, purely looking at things on a world overpopulation viewpoint, and the resultant effects in Africa, that's one thing that certain people could use to say, "Thank god for slavery!". |
And the Holocaust, and Stalin, and....etc.
-Drachasor
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Patroklos
That is a very important part. The races are different, obviously they have skin color to support that, but if I don't believe that difference elevates or denegrates a group in any way then I am not a racist. |
On a spiritual level I view everyone as being equally children of God. Our physical bodies and brains are just vehicles that we use to travel through this life. Some of us have better vehicles than others, and some types of vehicles have certain strengths and weaknesses on average. What is so offensive about recognising that? As long as you don't judge an individual soley on their race in a way that robs them of opportunity there is no harm in recognising that different racial groups differ in their average abilities.
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Drachasor
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quote:
Originally posted by Gibsie
Well, although that logic does follow, and bfg probably appreciates the holocaust for various reasons (None for antisemitic ones, I'm not going to label anyone racist), I mean particularly in Africa. Keeping the numbers of Europeans down is one thing, but on a continent with starvation far greater than in Europe, desertification that would only be worse with greater population pressures etc. it's another matter. |
But the massive economic hit and other historical factors have surely contributed to the current dire situation.
You can't say everything would be the same just with more people. (Well, you can't, but it isn't accurate).
-Drachasor
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Drachasor
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
On a spiritual level I view everyone as being equally children of God. Our physical bodies and brains are just vehicles that we use to travel through this life. Some of us have better vehicles than others, and some types of vehicles have certain strengths and weaknesses on average. What is so offensive about recognising that? As long as you don't judge an individual soley on their race in a way that robs them of opportunity there is no harm in recognising that different racial groups differ in their average abilities. |
You seem to quick to jump to conclusions without any evidence. That's a big problem.
Genetic tests and other studies have shown human "racial groups" really aren't much different.
-Drachasor
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Asmodean
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Aarhus, Denmark
Aug 1999
time: 06:20
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Contrary to common belief, Denmark is not a racist country, and the danish immigration laws have nothing to do with racism. The law that the article mentions is made to stop forced marriages in (primarily) moslem circles. Until this law was passed, it was not uncommon for moslem parents to force their sons and daughters into marriages against their wish. This is perhaps not so great an issue in moslem countries, but because these children were brought up in Denmark, they had adopted danish values, and did not wish to marry against their will.
The law has made it impossible to "import" a spouse if you are below 24 years of age. Since the danish constitution prohibits such a law to distinguish based on race, religion etc, the law has to count for all danish citizens.
Furthermore, the reason why the danish government has adopted stron anti-immigrant legislation, is that we have done a piss-poor job of integrating those immigrants that we have, and the general feeling is that until we have sorted out those problems (ghettos, unemployment, etc.) these restrictions should not be lifted.
So no...I'm proud to say that I live in a country where race is no big issue.
Asmodean
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Drachasor
If you want you can tack on "unproven" to the definition. I'm fine with that. Some people in this thread do have unproven or outright wrong beliefs about blacks. |
Ultimately, the belief that environment is the only cause of racial differences is quite extreme. Environment and genetics both have an influence on groups and individuals. To recognise only one is "outright wrong". "we are all the same beneath the skin" is a nice-sounding fairy tale.
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Drachasor
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
Ultimately, the belief that environment is the only cause of racial differences is quite extreme. Environment and genetics both have an influence on groups and individuals. To recognise only one is "outright wrong". "we are all the same beneath the skin" is a nice-sounding fairy tale. |
Studies and research indicate that in terms of mental attitude and ability, differences are all environment between races.
-Drachasor
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Drachasor
You seem to quick to jump to conclusions without any evidence. That's a big problem. |
That's exactly what you are doing when you only recognise the influence of environment and ignore that of genetics.
quote:
Genetic tests and other studies have shown human "racial groups" really aren't much different.
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It's true, they aren't much different, and each group contains wide variation, but there certainly are some differences that are significant. Even putting aside the usual debate on intelligence, we see other significant differences between racial groups in areas such as sexual maturation. Blacks tend to sexually mature at younger ages, and East Asians mature at older ages. Whites are in the middle.
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28-10-2004 19:43
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