02-11-2004 17:02									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber I don't know anything about this guy. Was he a really popular film maker or someone that most people loved to hate. What I'm trying to get at is, will there be a great outpouring of emotion or is he someone only fringe people and activists will mourn

Well, that's quite difficult to say.

Van Gogh was a guy who just loved to provoke. Preferably by throwing insults at his opponents.
Or maybe I should say: he loved to throw insults around in order to pick a fight with an individual or a group. It's really hard to tell what came first.
Provocation was his trade, that much is sure.

As I tried to convey, now many of his opponents mourn publicly about his murder. I think that in fact they only pay lip-service.

You wouldn't want to get into a fight with van Gogh. He would do anything to just kill any debate by throwing around insults.
There is a certain circle of people who hail this as the summit of 'free speach'. I beg to differ.


His films should be separated from the colums he wrote. He is hailed an excellent film maker, and probably this is true. His films were not political statements, AFAIK.
But the colums he wrote is where the controversy is from.
He wrote colums for about every wekkly magazine you can think of, and usually he would leave the magizine with a fight.

In the end he turned to the internet, and started his own site ( http://www.theovangogh.nl/ [/url] I think) to vent his diatribes.

edit: inserted hthe right webadress. It obviously has little content now. Nice pic though.

	02-11-2004 17:03									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber I don't know anything about this guy. Was he a really popular film maker or someone that most people loved to hate. What I'm trying to get at is, will there be a great outpouring of emotion or is he someone only fringe people and activists will mourn

Kinda hard to tell at this point. The fact that he was brutully murdered alone could be reason for great public outcry and great emotional outpouring, this has happened a number of times in the past, even with non-famous people. Brutal murders (or murders of any kind for that matter) are still a rarity in this country, fortunately.

The fact that it seemed to have been a political assassination only makes it more likely that there will be an outcry over this, not (just) because of the person involved, but more because the motive is political: noone should ever have to fear for their safety to speak their mind in a free country. Yet, if we count a failed attempted murder on a prominent minister of our current government, this will have been the third such incident in 3 years (and before anyone asks, no muslims were involved in that failed attempt either, the perpetrator there was just a 'regular' loony)...

	02-11-2004 17:03									#33
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any relation to Vincent van Gogh?

	02-11-2004 17:04									#34
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laurentius: I haven't seen to much structual racism in my neck of the woods; hiden or other wise.

	02-11-2004 17:06									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer yeah but deride him or something...

Deride me for what? I dont enjoy saying these things, I know it makes me look horrible to some people. Its just that I'm genuinely concerned that few idiot muslims pave the way for future muslim hate and xenophobia in Europe. Thats why we should do something about these radical islamists before things get out of hand. IE people start to burn muslim stores etc.

	02-11-2004 17:06									#36
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Thanks fellas. Hopefully they can determine if the killer was the only one involved or not and quash any outbreak of violence.

	02-11-2004 17:07									#37
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quote: Its just that I'm genuinely concerned that few idiot muslims pave the way for future muslim hate and xenophobia in Europe. Thats why we should do something about these radical islamists before things get out of hand. IE people start to burn muslim stores etc.

10 minutes ago you favoured shooting people...

	02-11-2004 17:07									#38
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quote: yall europeans are so blatantly racist...

Making a bit of a generalization there Speer?

Take a look at Locutus' post: he quite clearly states that it could be anyone. I too believe that we can't jump to conclusions in this situation. They're a lot of wackos out there that could do something like this, not just Islamic terrorists. Just look at who assassinated Pim Fortuyn.

BTW do you know what group I first suspected when the Madrid bombing occurred? It wasn't Osama and his allah queerboy friends (disproving your entire racism angle), it was homegrown terrorist scum ETA. But it turned out I was wrong there though, huh?

Albert Speer

	02-11-2004 17:08									#39
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our_man:

why didn't you say...

Laurentius

????

why didn't you?

	02-11-2004 17:09									#40
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are yall just going temporarily brain-dead when you get to Laurentius' posts?

	02-11-2004 17:10									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer 10 minutes ago you favoured shooting people...

Actually I'm still in favour of that. The men who preach hate in the koran shools and mosques should be shot or locked away forever. People like the leader of Ansar al-islam living in Norway.

and btw, my room mate is a muslim and we are good friends.

	02-11-2004 17:12									#42
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quote: he perpetrator, who´s said to have stuck a pamphlet to Mr van Gogh's chest, was reportedly shot in the leg in an exchange of gunfire with a motorcycle policeman

Pressconference right now.

The above is confirmed. Nothing on the content of the note though.

	02-11-2004 17:12									#43
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quote: and btw, my room mate is a muslim and we are good friends.

ah yes... the "I even have [insert group here] friends!" arguement...

	02-11-2004 17:13									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer any relation to Vincent van Gogh?

This Theo Van Gogh was the grand-grandson of the Theo Van Gogh who was the brother of Vincent.

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin What films did this guy make? Are any of them in English or are they only in Dutch?

Most of this movies were in Dutch and very much aimed at a Dutch audience. A few have been released on the international market (presumably subtitled or dubbed), see http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0324660/ (the films with English AKA titles are available in English (duh))

	02-11-2004 17:14									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer ah yes... the "I even have [insert group here] friends!" arguement...

What?

	02-11-2004 17:14									#46
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Why? Because as a European, you were offending me with your accusations.

Let's put it like this if you want a comparison: you should have directed your criticism at the posters who were making those rather callous remarks. Instead you decided to put all Europeans under the same umbrella.

That would be the equivalent of me giving all Muslims a thumbs down just for your remarks.

	02-11-2004 17:16									#47
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at least deride laurentius so i don't feel like i'm in the bizarro world over here.

	02-11-2004 17:18									#48
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What is your problem dude? Cant you stand against me your own? Need some more people helping you? Ask Serb he prolly hates me for my comments about Russia

ON TOPIC: Whats up? Have the police said anything new?

	02-11-2004 17:18									#49
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Content of the note is kept secret for now.

Police only confirms that van Gogh was stabbed and that subsequently a shoot out took place.

Perpetrator is a 26 year old Amsterdammer with a double nationality: both Dutch and Maroccan, which indicates he is a Dutch born of Maroccan desent (sp?).

	02-11-2004 17:22									#50
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quote: Originally posted by germanos Content of the note is kept secret for now. Police only confirms that van Gogh was stabbed and that subsequently a shoot out took place. Perpetrator is a 26 year old Amsterdammer with a double nationality: both Dutch and Maroccan, which indicates he is a Dutch born of Maroccan desent (sp?).

Moroccan, in English. County is Morocco. Of course its Maroc in French, the most widely spoken western language there.

	02-11-2004 17:23									#51
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The Mayor of Amsterdam has called for a meeting/demonstration on the Dam (central square of Amsterdam) in support for free speech

He (the mayor) also claimed that van Gogh lived in Amsterdam because the city was such a stronghold of Free Speech...

for politicians who try to make such use out of the death of a man.

	02-11-2004 17:25									#52
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Moroccan, in English. County is Morocco. Of course its Maroc in French, the most widely spoken western language there.

thanks, but it was desent/decent I was looking for.

	02-11-2004 17:25									#53
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quote: at least deride laurentius so i don't feel like i'm in the bizarro world over here.

Speer, are you even reading my posts!? I stated that the remarks being made were callous. There's never a reason to start lining up people and shooting them. There's legislation in place whereby if Islamic fundamenalists (or any group for that matter) are spreading racial hatred, they can be taken care of.

It would also be nice of you to apologize for labelling Europeans as racist.

	02-11-2004 17:27									#54
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fine. not all Europeans are racists. there just is some regressive ilk among you.

only i would criticize a racist and get criticized myself while no one says anything against a racist.

	02-11-2004 17:28									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer fine. not all Europeans are racists. there just is some regressive ilk among you. only i would criticize a racist and get criticized myself while no one says anything against a racist.

Yeah, they are usually called radical muslims, thank you very much

	02-11-2004 17:29									#56
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quote: Originally posted by germanos The Mayor of Amsterdam has called for a meeting/demonstration on the Dam (central square of Amsterdam) in support for free speech He (the mayor) also claimed that van Gogh lived in Amsterdam because the city was such a stronghold of Free Speech... for politicians who try to make such use out of the death of a man.

a man is killed (apparently) for speaking out, and the mayor calls for free speech. Whats wrong with that exactly?

	02-11-2004 17:30									#57
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quote: Originally posted by germanos thanks, but it was desent/decent I was looking for.

descent. descend. From the latin, i think, possibly via the Norman French, though im not sure. Ascent, in the other direction.

Not to be confused with dissent, assent.

	02-11-2004 17:37									#58
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark a man is killed (apparently) for speaking out, and the mayor calls for free speech. Whats wrong with that exactly?

Because he's using a very recent tragedy to hammer home his political point. It's kinda tasteless.

	02-11-2004 17:37									#59
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*Sigh*

Speer, the only reason you were criticized was that you took it upon yourself to label all Europeans as racists. You didn't just criticize Laurentius - if you had just done that no-one would have argued against you, believe me.

Again, if you read other peoples posts yourself you would see that Locutus, rather than going on a rant against Laurentius, carefully deconstructed his argument and pointed out the inconsistencies e.g. we don't know it's a Muslim. He was just a little more subtle and far more effective than you were.

The best way to ridicule what someone is saying is not to shout and scream at them, but to analyze the flaws in their argument and then rip it apart.

	02-11-2004 17:45									#60
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saying that this guy wasn't a muslim doesn't show any inconsistancies in laurentius' belief that muslims should be exterminated.