03-11-2004 14:23									#121
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quote: Originally posted by WotanAnubis No, I think Fortuyn was killed because Volkert truly believed that he was a walking disaster area, would make a completely horrible politician on every issue and would lead the whole country to complete and utter ruin. That murder was not motivated by religion, unless you stretch the concept of "religion" quite far.

Well the Animal Rights movement shares a lot of characteristics of fundamentalist religious movements. They both have a circular logic that precludes their ability to persuade logically, and they both have a greater tendency than other groups to lash out violently (I assume) because of this.

	03-11-2004 22:13									#122
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quote: The Volkskrant newspaper, quoted by Reuters, said the 26-year-old suspect, who has dual Dutch and Moroccan nationality, was known to national security services but was not among a group of 150 Muslims the AIVD security service was monitoring. The suspect was allegedly the friend of Samir Azzouz, an 18-year-old Muslim of Moroccan origin who is awaiting trial on charges of planning a terrorist attack on targets including a nuclear reactor and Amsterdam's Schiphol Airport, De Telegraaf and NOS Dutch television reported. A picture on the front page of De Telegraaf showed the body of filmmaker Van Gogh lying on the street with two knives sticking out. "We're not going to take this," the Dagblad said. The paper said the killer shot Van Gogh eight or nine times, then calmly bent over his victim and slit his throat with a knife, AP reported.

Moroccan- Dutch dual national. Friend of someone awaiting trial on charges of planning terrorist attacks. Slitting of the throat.

looks like Laurentius was right.

I hope moderate muslims will join all other Dutch people, and people around the world, in fighting the menace of Islamist radicalism.

	03-11-2004 22:41									#123
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Moroccan- Dutch dual national. Friend of someone awaiting trial on charges of planning terrorist attacks. Slitting of the throat. looks like Laurentius was right. I hope moderate muslims will join all other Dutch people, and people around the world, in fighting the menace of Islamist radicalism.

The muslims and/or Morrocans here are in a rather nasty catch 22:
On one hand, there are many calls on them that they are not integrated, and being a muslim is one aspect they should dump and join the secular Dutch state. Call yorself a Muslim and building big Mosques is considered BAD.

On the other hand, in situations like this, it is demanded of them they declare themselves muslim if they want to join the voices condemning the murder. If they don't specifically show up en masse as muslims, that is BAD.



A question: Is there anything wrong with dual nationality?

	03-11-2004 22:50									#124
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De Telegraaf is the Dutch equivalent of the German Bild or the English Sun, a popular tabloidish paper, I wouldn't advise taking anything they report too seriously unless other sources confirm it... Yes, it's true that the that the suspect had, to quote official sources "ties with extremist muslims", but so did Samir Azzouz's mother, that doesn't make her an extremist. There could be at least 2 reasons why the AIVD wasn't monitoring the murder suspect like the other radicals: (1) they f*cked up or (2) he wasn't part of that group, he merely had contact with them. It could be either one, only time will tell. If radical muslims conspired to commit this assassination, it's not very logical for them to have gone after Van Gogh, there are far more obvious targets. Based on that reasoning it's likely the killer was just a lone loony, like past assassins. But again, let's just wait for an official report on the matter rather than speculate...

quote: I hope moderate muslims will join all other Dutch people, and people around the world, in fighting the menace of Islamist radicalism.

What, you really think moderate muslims are gonna say "Yay, about time someone killed that bastard"? Of course they are on the same line as the rest of the Dutch population, in fact a muslim delegation was present during the demonstration against the muder yesterday (though they had some doubts about coming because they feared for their own safety in case the mob had turned against them).

Unfortunately the issue is not what moderate muslims will do, the issue is what will be done onto them...

	03-11-2004 23:16									#125
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quote: Originally posted by germanos The muslims and/or Morrocans here are in a rather nasty catch 22: On one hand, there are many calls on them that they are not integrated, and being a muslim is one aspect they should dump and join the secular Dutch state. Call yorself a Muslim and building big Mosques is considered BAD. On the other hand, in situations like this, it is demanded of them they declare themselves muslim if they want to join the voices condemning the murder. If they don't specifically show up en masse as muslims, that is BAD. A question: Is there anything wrong with dual nationality?

is the problem calling yourself a muslim, and building a big mosque, or failing to assimilate in matters of family structure, treatment of women, etc?

	03-11-2004 23:17									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus De Telegraaf is the Dutch equivalent of the German Bild or the English Sun, a popular tabloidish paper, I wouldn't advise taking anything they report too seriously unless other sources confirm it... Yes, it's true that the that the suspect had, to quote official sources "ties with extremist muslims", but so did Samir Azzouz's mother, that doesn't make her an extremist. There could be at least 2 reasons why the AIVD wasn't monitoring the murder suspect like the other radicals: (1) they f*cked up or (2) he wasn't part of that group, he merely had contact with them. It could be either one, only time will tell. If radical muslims conspired to commit this assassination, it's not very logical for them to have gone after Van Gogh, there are far more obvious targets. Based on that reasoning it's likely the killer was just a lone loony, like past assassins. But again, let's just wait for an official report on the matter rather than speculate... What, you really think moderate muslims are gonna say "Yay, about time someone killed that bastard"? Of course they are on the same line as the rest of the Dutch population, in fact a muslim delegation was present during the demonstration against the muder yesterday (though they had some doubts about coming because they feared for their own safety in case the mob had turned against them). Unfortunately the issue is not what moderate muslims will do, the issue is what will be done onto them...

I was not thinking so much of the reaction to this murder, which I agree the reaction is obvious, but of larger attitudes towards radical Islamism, terrorism, etc.

	03-11-2004 23:23									#127
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark is the problem calling yourself a muslim, and building a big mosque, or failing to assimilate in matters of family structure, treatment of women, etc?

Well, I would say the latter, but I often get the idea the debate is about the first.
The party of the late Fortuyn has tried hard to stop the building of a big mosque here in Rotterdam (where they govern) simply on the assertion the building of the mosque itself is a sign of failing to integrate.

	03-11-2004 23:34									#128
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quote: Like Fortuyn, he only ever brought up problems, never solutions.

If no one ever calls ont the problems, chances are no soluions will ever come up either.

	03-11-2004 23:35									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Why would criticism of the treatment of women in Islamic countries be considered controversial? It is a well known fact that women are essentially second class citizens in a number of Islamic countries, including Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, (northern) Nigeria and a number of the Gulf states. By and large the most outspoken Islamic groups advocate the oppression of women and are not at all defensive about their opinions.

You can't in Europe, 'cause that is absolute proof you're a racist.

	03-11-2004 23:35									#130
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quote: Originally posted by germanos Well, I would say the latter, but I often get the idea the debate is about the first. The party of the late Fortuyn has tried hard to stop the building of a big mosque here in Rotterdam (where they govern) simply on the assertion the building of the mosque itself is a sign of failing to integrate.

Maybe that's a reason why hatemongering works so well?

	03-11-2004 23:37									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Maybe that's a reason why hatemongering works so well?

Sorry, but I don't get your point

	03-11-2004 23:45									#132
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quote: Originally posted by germanos Sorry, but I don't get your point

By rejecting the possibility to build a real worship place, the Fortuynists actively participate to a climate of alienation instead of integration.

	03-11-2004 23:49									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor By rejecting the possibility to build a real worship place, the Fortuynists actively participate to a climate of alienation instead of integration.

OK, I see now.
And I agree as well.
(with you, not the Fortuynists )

Good news is though that all the stuff allready passed the various commisions, and the building cannot be stopped anymore.

	04-11-2004 00:00									#134
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bettter to build a big mosque. Easier to watchem than in a lot of little mosques. Thats the French way, no?

	04-11-2004 00:04									#135
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8 other islamacists arrested in the invetigations with no statement why, it may be a usual suspects things, the know the perp, and they were previously detained, questioned, and released in another terror investigation.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=sto...mmaker_slain_25

	04-11-2004 00:14									#136
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark bettter to build a big mosque. Easier to watchem than in a lot of little mosques. Thats the French way, no?

That's a possibility. With the recent rise of religious zealotry among our Muslims, there have been many small, unadequate mosques that opened.

It's much better for us to have larger mosques with an imam we know for being kosher. Since the Muslim organizations want to integrate the Republic, they'll happily agree having a moderate imam in a large mosque, whereas small ones may be out of their control.

	05-11-2004 02:42									#137
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In a pressconference held the last hour, the contents of the letter pinned/stabbed unto van Gogh has been released.

It's a five page letter, basically containing threats towards the co-author of the short-film 'Submission part 1' (a liberal politician of ethnic Somali origin) and lines linking the assasination to islamist terrorism.

A note/letter found on of the perpetrator contained basically a farwell note, as he aparently hoped he would get shot by the police.
For the record, he was shot in the leg, and is currently held in a hospital.
Unfortunately for the guy is that he didn't get his martyrship.

Full contents of the letter is released, and I expect to hear more once the journalists have read it .

	05-11-2004 04:07									#138
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" A letter left on the body of a Dutch filmmmaker murdered in Amsterdam contained death threats against a politician and was signed by a suspected terrorist group, the justice minister said Thursday, as police pressed an investigation into radical Islamic groups.



Dutch authorities have arrested nine men — eight of Moroccan — all believed tied to Islamic militant groups, in Tuesday's shooting and stabbing of Theo van Gogh. Authorities have said they are investigating possible links between the suspects and international terrorist groups, including those responsible for the Casablanca bombings in May last year.


Justice Minister Piet Hein Donner said Thursday the note contained a "direct warning" to the film's screenwriter, Ayaan Hirst Ali, a Somali-born lawmaker who has outraged fellow Muslims by criticizing Islamic customs and the failure of Muslim families to adopt Dutch ways. She had been under police protection before the slaying.


Van Gogh received death threats after the film was released in August.


Donner said the way the 5-page letter "was presented indicates that it is not from one person, but a a movement."


The letter, which was addressed to Ali, said "I know definitely that you, Hirsi Ali, will go down."

-snipped-


The letter was typed in Dutch and Arabic, and threatened to bring down "nonbelievers."


"I know definitely that America will crumble," it said. '

	05-11-2004 04:40									#139
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Of the nine men now held, indeed 8 are of Morrocan nationality. One also has a Spanish passport. A ninth man has a Algerian passport.
The perpetrator is Dutch born, and carries both Dutch and Morrocan passports.

In the letter found, threats are also made against 'the jewish masters of Hirsi Ali'.

AFAIK, the letters were both written in Dutch.

	05-11-2004 04:45									#140
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quote: Originally posted by germanos AFAIK, the letters were both written in Dutch.

Apparently there was a small poem in Arab, the rest was indeed in Dutch.

From what I understood, officials have also stated that there is no link between the arrested men and al Quaeda or other international groups, though it seems to me it's a bit early to know that for certain at this time. I presume they meant that there is no evidence of this so far.

	05-11-2004 04:51									#141
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His 'farewell'poem is definetly in Dutch:

http://www.nrc.nl/documenten/artikel/1099572679191.html

(I'm not going to bother to translate it: it's crap anyway.)

Last edited by germanos on 05-11-2004 at 04:59

	05-11-2004 05:11									#142
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Hmm, the same thing was read on TV but they said it was a translation. NOS Teletekst now confirms the entire letter is in 'flawless Dutch' as well. Then I don't know where the 'Arab' rumour came from either...

	05-11-2004 05:26									#143
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Holland, European capital of anti-right political terrorism.

	05-11-2004 06:08									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Holland, European capital of anti-right political terrorism.

Am I the only one not having the slightest clue on what that means.

	05-11-2004 06:10									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Ned anti-right

A very black & white view, which certainly for Van Gogh doesn't hold true. He was basically a nihilist, anti-establishment and more than anything anti-religious (throughout his life he's been sued repeatedly by christians, jews and muslims alike). He can't really be placed on a left-right scale (which to a lesser extent was true for Fortuyn as well, though he was clearly more sympathetic to the right than to the left).

	05-11-2004 18:27									#146
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Locutus, thanks. I thought he was like Fortuyn or that French anti-Muslim rightest LePen.

	06-11-2004 19:25									#147
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I was wondering, how different do you think you would have reacted and how different do you think the public reaction would have been if instead a nutcase supporter of Fortuyn/van Gogh, possibly also as part of a small group of radicals, had decided to whack some outspoken extremist Muslim?

I don't know many of those, to be honest. The only name I can think of now is Dyab Abu Jahjah, but he isn't Dutch.

I am quite sure my reaction would have been the same (though I'm sure there would be other people I wouldn't be so clear about too), but I'm not sure if the rest of Holland would have been so outraged. Of course, with fundamentalists it's real easy to just call them terrorists.

To a certain degree it's quite understandable. But how much are we really prepared to stand up for free speech if it concerns people we don't agree with or understand at all?

Well, I don't really know what to think...

	06-11-2004 19:36									#148
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I'm not sure Mercator. In Europe, the Muslims are still considered as a "victim" group by many (although this changes quickly, thanks to the extremist's efforts at having their religion loathed), and such a crime would prove that our old demons, our old-school racisms are not dead yet.

	06-11-2004 19:38									#149
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I think by and large the reactions would be the same they are now.

The muslim wouldn't be praised for being a strong advocate for free speech though .

	06-11-2004 20:20									#150
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quote: Holland, European capital of anti-right political terrorism.

Thank you Ned for this wonderful insight...

I suspected it at first but now I'm totally sure that they mess with your drinking water...