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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by laurentius
Yeah I admit I get heated up by these people pretty easily. Was my reaction irrational, yes it was. If theres something you disagree and want to perhaps correct, I'm more than happy to argue  |
Well, for the matter of radical and violent muslims (which is not necessarily the topic of the thread), I do agree something must be done about them. They are much more of a threat for the Muslims living in western countries than for the westerners themselves.
Indeed, Europe has a long tradition of hatred and massacres towards its minorities. The Radical Muslims are waking this hatred up, which will sadly affect all Muslims living in Europe, rather than only those few troublemakers. They are also successful at turning many young Muslims against their country, which means they are very efficient at destroying our past attempts at integration.
The answer to that problem, however, is not shooting them. We must answer these problems by:
1. A strict application of the laws against incitement. I think most European countries have laws against incitement to hatred. They should be applied in the firmest way against radical Muslims, and against racists.
2. A modification of our immigration laws to prevent known hate-mongers to migrate in our territory. The Danes have done this already (although it only concerns Muslims IIUC, which is stupid)
3. An active policy of non-racism. If the hatemongers are so successful, that's mostly because the European societies still haven't satisfyingly integrated their Muslims. That's because our secular societies seem far less promising than religious violence.
If our countries are successful at creating equal opportunity for our Muslims and non-Muslims, the identification to the western country will e stronger for the Muslims, and they'll be far less prone to follow the zealots.
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Locutus
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ACS CTP1/2 Manager & Civ4 Co-Manager
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Hengelo, The Netherlands
Nov 1999
time: 06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
But what precisely? What, in your opinion, makes political murder so acceptable in the Netherlands? |
Indeed, that is exactly the question we should be trying to answer. Unfortunately, I am stumped. I have absolutely no idea, not a single clue. Violence (both political violence and ordinary street violence) is increasingly a serious problem in this country, but there's no evident root cause for it, or none that I can see.
Crime figures has been decreasing for ages, football hooliganism has been reduced to throwing insults (still a hot issue, but at least physicial violence has all but disappeared), internationally the Netherlands is often hailed for its 'poldermodel' which favours cooperation over conflict, etc. Yet increasingly people are just beaten to death or shot for no apparent reason, or for political motives. If a clear reason for such behaviour could be found something could finally be done about it, but although everyone has something to say about the issue, noone seems to have any real answers... 
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:19
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Well I kind of agree with what laurentius is saying. I mean, I think he's little fired up so maybe I'll explain what I feel he means because I have same thoughts.
Minorities living anywhere are always subjected to racism of some sort. It might be straight up in your face type of thing, or the one that they don't hear about in the street but words get said behind their backs. This happens everywhere and to everyone. This would happen to me in some places, and in here the same happens to other minorities. That's just the way it goes. I'm not saying it's justified, I'm saying that's the way it goes.
So, they have to be extra careful. If I'm a minority somewhere, I make sure I'm a good embassador for my country or what ever and stay of peoples business. Because what I do directly reflects to how my countrymen etc are treated. This is pretty simple so far. And yes, the acts of few makes them all look bad. That might be a racist thing to say if we live in PC laalaaland. But since we live in a real world with real people, the majority gets pissed off.
The difference is, that in the west, most things are good with us. We have prospered and basic needs are usually available for most people. If it wasn't so, the racist leaders would enjoy larger popularity. Because they blame someone else for their own misery. And that tends to be popular idea in bad times. Nationalist do good in those kind of days, without exception.
Now add fuel to the fire and some individual from a minority group takes action and does what we think is totally uncalled hate crime. We assume that we are racist when we think bad about say radical muslims who have not done us wrong, yet. Does anyone in their right mind think they are not racist as well..? Well they are racist enough to salivate on the thought of killing us. And yes I'm talking about the radicals, not the normal people of Islam, who believe in peace and all that good stuff.
To those radicals, it means a lot what Christians and others have done them wrong in the past. They haven't forgotten that. It was bad for them. But we don't think that uhh since that happened to a lot of people who weren't in our team, that we somehow deserve to be struck back. We don't even consider that as an issue anymore. It's in the past. If some radical strikes against us what ever the reason is, it's a hate crime against us and racist act, and we see it as that period.
Now, when these things happens, these individuals put their whole society in danger, in danger of the majority getting openly racist. And in that situation, the snowball effect happens and the minority really gets it bad. That's when the pig gear kicks in, and that's what we need to avoid.
So yes, they are a minority, and yes only a vaining few are in charge of these kind of things, but it's enough if it keeps on happening. And no, in that situation the good and the bad vanishes. On the other hand it's wrong to take action against people who are innocent. But then again, those radical individuals should also have some brains and not kill other people for their own hate filled needs. Unless, the society that is normal part takes STRONG stand against these criminals. But when that doesn't happen.... I'm not justifying it, it's wrong, but it doesn't come as a surprise to me that people are also willing to strike back, even against innocent people.
The best spreads of islamophobia are radicals themselves.
And even in here, we have some racism against muslims. They are free target to piss on. We've had some people burning some restaurants down in the past, and now there are news that about 20 kurds at least are in direct connections with the terrorists, and have been planning to do some bad things in here. Now, you just wait when something actually happens, and it's legal to beat people in here. I'm saying our society is not PC on racism, but we're not really that racist, just more reserved. But if something should happen, we are likely to become very racist and take action. After all this is the vigilants day dream and action takers fantasy place to be. We are kind of homogenous, so we are not used to these kind of things too good yet, but it will get ugly if something happens. I won't be there shouting insults or attacking anyone, but lot of people will be.
The best thing we can do to protect our muslims is to handle these radicals tough and rough ASAP. That way we protect the normal society from getting the undeserved heat and racist attacks. So yes, we need to get them soon and get them hard. For all of our sakes.
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germanos
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behind a firm ****, Rotterdam, NL
Apr 2002
time: 06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberShy
The murdere of van Gogh has pinned a paper on his cheast with arabic messages. That's already officially broadcasted by the justice department. (www.nos.nl)
Of course nothing is official, but we can be 95% sure that van Gogh has been killed by an islamitic fundamentalist for the reason that van Gogh has insulted the islam.
I even dare to be sure that the movie in which koran-lines were projected on naked womem-bodies is the main reason. |
that the text found on van Gogh is in arabic is not a fact, not even on the source you quote.
I have yet to hear that the justice department has confirmed this is the case.
It is good you mention the short film he has made. If the note indeed is in arabic, then it might as well be a '***-for-tat'* by the perpetrator.
*milk-gland 
I would be very surprised if your numberorogy hold any signifigance. Madrid wasn't 911 days after 9/11 after all.
On the reason why political violence would be acceptable nowadays in Holland: it's not.
On the famed Dutch tolerance: it does not really exist, and I hold this position for 20 years now. The Dutch tolerance is more like: You can do what you want, as long as it doesn't interfere with me. I still think you're a dickhead though, and you can go stuff it if you come near me.
I think 'it' is getting near to a lot of Dutch nowadays.
Unfortunately, van Gogh did little in bringing people together, quite the opposite IMO.
There has been a commemoration in Amsterdam, and frankly I am quite scared that now van Gogh, with all his diatribes, is now hailed by national and local politicians as the great defender of Free Speech. In fact they condone now his insulting ways that he thought was debate.
I fear that we will see a great surge in insults and violence. Van Gogh's ways will become the norm, he was such a good guy after all 
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CyberShy
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Delft, The Netherlands
Mar 1999
time: 06:19
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Wow germanos, you sound..... strange.
First, on the nos-site, if you go to the timeline link, you'll see in the timeline at 10:10
quote:
10:10 - Justitie meldt dat er "islamitische teksten" zijn gevonden bij het slachtoffer |
translation: 10:10 - Justice announces that 'islamitic texts' are found by the victim.
quote:
germanos: that the text found on van Gogh is in arabic is not a fact, not even on the source you quote.
I have yet to hear that the justice department has confirmed this is the case. |
Man, what's the problem with just saying what happened. An islamist had killed van Gogh and pinned texts from the koran with a knife in his chest.
If a christian would kill John Kerry and pin texts from the bible in his chest with a knife, I would be the first to accept that the guy who did that did a terrible thing, and I would declare my disgust 100 times in public here.
But guys like you keep on claiming that "things are not sure yet and we don't know the motives for sure as well."
In what kind of world are you living?
quote:
It is good you mention the short film he has made. If the note indeed is in arabic, then it might as well be a '***-for-tat'* by the perpetrator. |
Pherhaps. I must say in disgust that I really disrespect you for laughing about that.
The women in his movie were violently harmed by their husbands, and had the koran-texts projected on their body that allow or even tell to demolish your wife.
I'm the first to say that van Gogh should've never done that. But you, you just laugh about it.
It's horrible to kill someone like a beast (van Gogh was crawling away from his murderer, begging to not do this. The murderer followed him, stung him with a knife. And when van gogh died his murdered calmly pinned a message on his death body. And you have to laugh about that? Horrible.
quote:
I would be very surprised if your numberorogy hold any signifigance. Madrid wasn't 911 days after 9/11 after all. |
I haven't calculated Madrid and 911. I believed the person who told me.
There is a 911 days gap between may 6th and november 2th. I don't know if that holds any significanse. It might be pure accidental. I doubt it though.
quote:
On the reason why political violence would be acceptable nowadays in Holland: it's not. |
That's true.
Though much people will feel scared now the following months, when speaking out loud about islam.
quote:
On the famed Dutch tolerance: it does not really exist, and I hold this position for 20 years now. The Dutch tolerance is more like: You can do what you want, as long as it doesn't interfere with me. I still think you're a dickhead though, and you can go stuff it if you come near me.
I think 'it' is getting near to a lot of Dutch nowadays. |
Well said.
Besides that you miss an important part: "We are tolerant as long as you're as tolerant as we are, and for that reason share the same ideas as we do"
quote:
Unfortunately, van Gogh did little in bringing people together, quite the opposite IMO. |
That's true as well.
What happened today in Amsterdam is not that horrible because VAN GOGH was killed, but it's horrible because van Gogh was killed FOR HIS OPINION.
Which is indeed not 100% sure yet. But it's 95% sure for sure. Denying that is a foolish thing to do.
quote:
There has been a commemoration in Amsterdam, and frankly I am quite scared that now van Gogh, with all his diatribes, is now hailed by national and local politicians as the great defender of Free Speech. In fact they condone now his insulting ways that he thought was debate. |
That's true again. (we do not disagree that much  )
I keep saying, it's not van Gogh who's that important. It's the reason why he is murdered.
Besides that, besides that big load of bs the guy unleashed, he did actually write good articles as well.
quote:
I fear that we will see a great surge in insults and violence. Van Gogh's ways will become the norm, he was such a good guy after all |
I hope you're wrong.
quote:
Locotus: Better yet, if there *is* a significance in the numerology, it would suggest that the motive *isn't* islamic. After all, Fortuyn was killed by a white animal rights activist, not a muslim. There is no real link between Fortuyn and muslim fundamentalism (except that I'm sure they hated him too)... |
The 911 would be significant.
Besides that, Fortuyn was killed for his opinion on foreigners. Both Fortuyn and van Gogh are killed for their opinion on islam.
And indeed, in Fortuyn's case he was killed by a dutch man.
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WotanAnubis
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberShy
Besides that, Fortuyn was killed for his opinion on foreigners. Both Fortuyn and van Gogh are killed for their opinion on islam.
And indeed, in Fortuyn's case he was killed by a dutch man. |
No, I think Fortuyn was killed because Volkert truly believed that he was a walking disaster area, would make a completely horrible politician on every issue and would lead the whole country to complete and utter ruin.
That murder was not motivated by religion, unless you stretch the concept of "religion" quite far.
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Locutus
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ACS CTP1/2 Manager & Civ4 Co-Manager
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Hengelo, The Netherlands
Nov 1999
time: 06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberShy
First, on the nos-site, if you go to the timeline link, you'll see in the timeline at 10:10 |
Then the NOS made the same mistake as some people in this thread: they jumped to conclusions. At the press conference of 1ish it was explicitly stated by the police department that no information on the note (either language or content) was known. To the best of my knowledge they have not changed their position on this.
It struck me anyway that in the morning the journalists of the NOS already seemed to have concluded for themselves that the killer must've been a muslim fundie. It was only after an eye witness pointed out it the Jalabah could've been a disguise that they suddenly started to show some reservations. Yay for the integrity of the NOS...
quote:
Man, what's the problem with just saying what happened. An islamist had killed van Gogh and pinned texts from the koran with a knife in his chest. |
Because this is exactly what everyone was saying when Pim Fortuyn was murdered, and they were WRONG. This is exactly was everyone was saying after the attempted 'assassination' on Van Aartsen (I think it was him?), and they were WRONG.
Yes, right now there are strong clues that it was a muslim, but there is still no conclusive evidence for that whatsoever. Like I said before, it's so easy and quite frankly very scary that everyone immediately jumps to the conclusion that muslims must've done it -- even if in this case they might in retrospect be proven to be correct...
quote:
But guys like you keep on claiming that "things are not sure yet and we don't know the motives for sure as well."
In what kind of world are you living? |
In a world that is not black and white, where reason and logic prevail over 'onderbuikgevoelens'...
quote:
I haven't calculated Madrid and 911. I believed the person who told me. |
Yeah, that seems to be a theme with you...
quote:
What happened today in Amsterdam is not that horrible because VAN GOGH was killed, but it's horrible because van Gogh was killed FOR HIS OPINION. |
I agree that that's the key point  I didn't like Van Gogh one bit but if I didn't live so far from Amsterdam I might've considered attending that demonstration myself.
quote:
Besides that, Fortuyn was killed for his opinion on foreigners. Both Fortuyn and van Gogh are killed for their opinion on islam. |
Fortuyn was killed because "he was a danger to the weaker groups in society", not for his opinions on Islam specifically. To say Van Gogh was killed for his opinion on Islam is still speculation, even if you don't like it. It's looking likely, but let's wait a few days and base such important conclusions on facts, not suspicions...
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WotanAnubis
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quote:
Originally posted by laurentius
a crackdown on islamic activity might prevent another kiristallnacht? |
No. A crackdown on islamic activity might be another Kristallnacht.
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Dr Strangelove
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Why would criticism of the treatment of women in Islamic countries be considered controversial? It is a well known fact that women are essentially second class citizens in a number of Islamic countries, including Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, (northern) Nigeria and a number of the Gulf states. By and large the most outspoken Islamic groups advocate the oppression of women and are not at all defensive about their opinions.
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Monk
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I don't think we're in Brønshøj anymore
Jan 1970
time: 06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Albert Speer
yall europeans are so blatantly racist... |
Somebody who wants to be known as Albert Speer is accusing others of being racists.
Could you at least be consistent?
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germanos
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behind a firm ****, Rotterdam, NL
Apr 2002
time: 06:19
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Cybershy:
I was laughing at the autocensor in ***-for-tat.
Interesting observations you make of that though.
Most of what you wrote has been rebutted by Locotus and Hueij, so I won't answer in detail.
The following quote is very interesting though:
quote:
Pherhaps. I must say in disgust that I really disrespect you for laughing about that.
The women in his movie were violently harmed by their husbands, and had the koran-texts projected on their body that allow or even tell to demolish your wife.
I'm the first to say that van Gogh should've never done that. |
emphasis mine
Ehrrrm... Does that actually mean you agree with the idea that van Gogh should not have been allowed to do that?
On the 'facts' : I must say that Locutus put it very well: it is all this jumping to conclusions that gets people in trouble. When I checked the link, it said it was thought it were islamic texts. AFAIK there is still no official conformation of this.
For the record: I do not laugh at van Gogh's death, and I certainly do not think he deserved it in any way.
IMO, van Gogh was an unconsiderate bastard, and he mistook the freedom of speech for the freedom to insult.
This is why I am so upset about the reactions by the politicians: people might get the idea it is ok to insult, since if you can't insult somebody your freedom of speech is violated. A similar issue played a role with regard to Fortuyn. He was somebody as well who appeared to get great pleasure from insulting others.
To me, freedom of speech is a great good, since it allows for debate. Hurling insults usually blocks debate. Van Gogh always thought he made a good point if his insults wrought anger from his oponents. But instead I think that if you have to throw insults around to get your point across, it really means you're a poor debater.
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02-11-2004 19:52
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