23-11-2004 20:38									#61
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As the outgoing Emperor, I would like to add my perspective to the wisdom imparted by the Emperor Modo, in order to assist the Emperor-Elect:

Workers: I agree with Emperor Modo's general statement about the efficient use of Workers, though I respectfully point out that sometimes short-term objectives in specific cities such as quick population or production growth will sway the Emperor in favour of using multiple Workers on a single tile, as occurred under my reign.

Armies: The Galleys are awaiting further Legionaries to be upgraded and shipped southwards. As the Senate has probably come to understand, Emperor Modo and I disagree about the degree of military strength required to attack the core of Carthage. I would advise waiting until our Legionary Army plus 6 to 8 support units are available, though I believe Emperor Modo would counsel a lesser number. The new Emperor must decide on this issue.

Spearmen builds: I agree with Emperor Modo. The Spearman builds in question were mainly because they were new builds this turn that I left up to the new Emperor, or were in remote ex-Celtic towns that could not build Garrisons. Though I do admit that the Spearman build in Segusio should preferably be a Garrison, and I apologise for this minor lapse. I do counsel additional Garrison builds for the north of the Empire.

Citizens: Upon reflection, I agree with Emperor Modo that we don't have enough Citizens being built. There are currently 2 on their way to founding new towns, and a couple more should probably be on the build queues.

Future Townsites: For what it's worth, my intention was to found towns using the existing 2 Citizens at Aquileia 774 and Beneventum 223.

I endorse wholeheartedly Emperor Modo's suggested townsites of Croton 22, Croton 69 and Padua 22, and suggest that another town be placed at Ancona 223. With these towns in place, there is probably insufficient room for an additional town between Rome/Pisae or Rome/Neapolis.

Last edited by Aqualung71 on 23-11-2004 at 20:45

	23-11-2004 21:16									#62
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I again ask you senators.....who amongst you, after reading the arguments here, would counsel an immediate re-declaration of war against the Celts?

	24-11-2004 04:07									#63
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Redeclaring war on the Celts is not an option at this time. We are bound by the Treaty of 305BC, and our honor as a nation. This treaty can be profitable to us as we trade with the Celts and concentrate on the conquest of Carthage.

*Paging Senator Aqualung71 to the Senate Floor*

I think you should answer that.

	24-11-2004 05:24									#64
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Senator skrobism, thank you for your attention to this matter. Unfortunately however, you have not really addressed the core issue. The honour of Rome is a separate matter to military strategy.

I for one, believe that Rome is not bound by any treaties made with barbarian races. If it suits Rome to invade the Celts, then Rome should invade the Celts. We can hope for no such respect from these people, and we should offer them none until they are under our control and have learned the wisdom of being part of the Roman Empire.

So I pose the question again.....regardless of any peace treaty currently in place, does it suit Rome to re-declare war on the Celts?

	24-11-2004 07:04									#65
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I think we should concentrate on the cripping of Carthage. Once we complete the task we should try to make peace and get rest of the islands or conquer them and make peace.
After this we can turn our attention north and destroy the Celts. So, I think we should not declare war immidiately but wait until we have the power to destroy the Celts.

	24-11-2004 07:13									#66
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I would concur with Senator Ormuzd

	24-11-2004 07:37									#67
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Well that makes 4 votes for "no" and none for "yes", though Modo the Accused may well have assumed the role of Fascist party whip and be organising the numbers as I write

I suggest this issue be clearly identified in the next poll by the incumbent Emperor Conius

	24-11-2004 08:28									#68
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Hmm, Fascist party. That leads to an interesting question: In Rome, what would a "Fascist" party entail? Certainly not the same meaning that it takes now, that of a militarist police state with left-leaning economic policies (or something like that, I've always been of the opinion that Fascist is a word with less than perfect definition due to its overuse as a "bad" word).

The Fasces, which was a common symbol of Roman legions, is in fact where Fascism comes from. So would Modo be defined as the leader of the party that defends the viewpoint of the Legions, while Aqualung is the leader of the party who defends the supreme rule of the Emperor / Dictator? That could lead to some interesting Coup possibilities

	24-11-2004 11:23									#69
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quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 The Fasces, which was a common symbol of Roman legions, is in fact where Fascism comes from. So would Modo be defined as the leader of the party that defends the viewpoint of the Legions, while Aqualung is the leader of the party who defends the supreme rule of the Emperor / Dictator? That could lead to some interesting Coup possibilities

Yes, we could probably call Modo the Leader of the Faeces Party.

	24-11-2004 11:53									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 Well that makes 4 votes for "no" and none for "yes", though Modo the Accused may well have assumed the role of Fascist party whip and be organising the numbers as I write

You are wrong. Your "cunning" peace treaty gave us two cities deep in Celtic territory. Cities that are open to attack by the barbarians and, it seems, will remain so for some time. If we were to go back to war, we'd have to abandon the cities, for we have no means of reinforcing them fast enough. And, whomever lives in those cities, they are now Roman Citizens and I am against depriving them of a place to live.

By the way, I see you now resort to making jokes. No rational argument left, eh?

	24-11-2004 12:00									#71
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Atleast thos cities are not building troups to be used against Rome.

	24-11-2004 12:06									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 You are wrong. Your "cunning" peace treaty gave us two cities deep in Celtic territory. Cities that are open to attack by the barbarians and, it seems, will remain so for some time. If we were to go back to war, we'd have to abandon the cities, for we have no means of reinforcing them fast enough. And, whomever lives in those cities, they are now Roman Citizens and I am against depriving them of a place to live. By the way, I see you now resort to making jokes. No rational argument left, eh?

You are speaking more and more irrationally, poor man. you quoted that I said "4 for yes, none for no", called me wrong and then rambled on about cunning peace treaties

Nevertheless, I think you will recall that in one of my responses I acknowledged that those 2 towns are probably of little value in the short term and are open to aggressive action by other civilisations.

However, I believe Senator jagjef summed up the most pertinent point here quite nicely:

quote: Atleast thos cities are not building troups to be used against Rome.

[EDIT: And the joke was only necessary because you've presented no rational argument to which I need respond seriously]

	24-11-2004 12:13									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 You are wrong. Your "cunning" peace treaty gave us two cities deep in Celtic territory. Cities that are open to attack by the barbarians and, it seems, will remain so for some time. If we were to go back to war, we'd have to abandon the cities, for we have no means of reinforcing them fast enough. And, whomever lives in those cities, they are now Roman Citizens and I am against depriving them of a place to live. By the way, I see you now resort to making jokes. No rational argument left, eh?

I agree that these people are now Roman Citizens and in this means we MUST be looking at their welfare and safety

What plans do you have for this Emperor Conious

Senators Aqualung, McMeadows and Jagjef, you are the current Consuls, have you looked at this matter?

	24-11-2004 12:29									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 You are speaking more and more irrationally, poor man. you quoted that I said "4 for yes, none for no", called me wrong and then rambled on about cunning peace treaties

You were wrong in your assumption that I would entice anyone to vote in favor of going right back to war with the Celts. I never intended to do that that and never did.

	24-11-2004 12:44									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 You were wrong in your assumption that I would entice anyone to vote in favor of going right back to war with the Celts. I never intended to do that that and never did.

Oh. So....does this mean you agree that we shouldn't be fighting the Celts at this time, a mere few turns after you wanted to consign all memory of their race to the pages of Heroditus?

	24-11-2004 13:08									#76
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No, Emperor, you are trying to twist my words again. How not very nice of you.

I was in favor of not signing a peace treaty with Celts, but once it's in place, we can't just undo it. Going right back to war doesn't make much sense. Especially if you consider the lives of the new Roman Citizens, which a renewed war would put into jeopardy. Were it not for those lives then yes, I would try to convince tehe Senate that we should keep attacking the Celts.

	24-11-2004 13:11									#77
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quote: Originally posted by ormuzd I think we should concentrate on the cripping of Carthage. Once we complete the task we should try to make peace and get rest of the islands or conquer them and make peace. After this we can turn our attention north and destroy the Celts. So, I think we should not declare war immidiately but wait until we have the power to destroy the Celts.

Well said Senator Ormuzd

We are lucky to have your years of wisdom and experience here in the Senate of Rome

	24-11-2004 14:13									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 No, Emperor, you are trying to twist my words again. How not very nice of you.

Me? Twist? How could you think such a thing?

quote: I was in favor of not signing a peace treaty with Celts, but once it's in place, we can't just undo it. Going right back to war doesn't make much sense. Especially if you consider the lives of the new Roman Citizens, which a renewed war would put into jeopardy. Were it not for those lives then yes, I would try to convince tehe Senate that we should keep attacking the Celts.

It seems then that you are the only member of the Senate who still believes we should not have disengaged our troops from the precarious position in which they were placed during your reign - that being, inside Celtic territory in woefully inadequate numbers. Then again, I am not surprised, since clearly you need to dig your heels in on this issue in order to not lose face.

	24-11-2004 14:25									#79
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I concour with Senator Ormuzd

I think we should concentrate on the cripping of Carthage

	24-11-2004 21:30									#80
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Emperor Aqualung:
I disagree with your point about honor. I do believe that the honor of Rome is important. But, I agree that peace with the Celts is important at this time. We should concentrate on the sacking of Carthage. Peace with the heathen of the north gives us this opportunity.

	24-11-2004 21:46									#81
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It would be very inefficient to move the troops back into Celtic territory after Aquq has taken them out and sent reinforcements to the south.
For the might of Rome, best seems to be sacking Carthage at the moment. Are there enough troops available to put pressure on the Carthagean settlement in Spain?

	24-11-2004 21:55									#82
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quote: Originally posted by McMeadows Are there enough troops available to put pressure on the Carthagean settlement in Spain?

That depends on how important we consider reinforcing the north-eastern border, which is currently undefended.

	27-11-2004 02:25									#83
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Emperor Conius

will we be reinforcing our new towns in anyway soon ?

	27-11-2004 02:55									#84
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No need to really there is a nice group of Legionaires around Massila.

If anythign they could be redeployed to take Corsica, if I had some Galleys

Rome doesn't start out with many I think only three, so some extra galleys for Amphib OPs will be nice.

	27-11-2004 03:28									#85
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Four it was, IIRC. But one could have been lost, attacking or defending against some Carthaginians.

Yes, it would be nice to have more Galleys. But then again, it would be even nicer to have Legions to put on Galleys.

	27-11-2004 03:38									#86
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a vicious set of choices that

	29-11-2004 23:15									#87
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We need many more Legions than Galleys. The following civs are very easy to reach without Galleys:

1. Celts (except British Isle)
2. Gauls
3. Macedonias
4. Portion of Carthages in Spain.

The following places only need 1 Galley : Sardina, Corsica, British Isles

The following places need 2 or 3 Galleys: Sacking Carthage. For capturing North Africa, I propose that we reuse the same 2 - 3 Galleys by having them come back for more Legions.

	29-11-2004 23:27									#88
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I agree. For now it will be enough to build one Galley, in case the Carthaginians get lucky. The Galleys will be exposed when they unload their cargo near Carthago.

	01-12-2004 14:23									#89
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Post - turn comments to Emperor Conius and some ideas on how to proceed. I'm attaching a map of Rome, so we can share ideas easier.


Domestic affairs

I see Citizens moving, and being prepared to move out.

I see Workers scrambled to make Mines near Neapolis. I guess that's what shaved the turn off Hadrian's Wall? A cunning thing to do, Emperor.

I urge the new Emperor to keep in mind more efficient ways of planning Worker actions. Now that the wonders are done, we don't need blitz-improving anymore. We want to first Chop forest and build a Road with one Worker per tile, only then follow with groups to finish the improvements. Please keep that in mind and land improvements will be done in no time.

Consider investigating the following cities, to find out if we have a chance of getting the Great Library:

• Alexandria
  
• Athens
  
• Carthago Novo

Roma can build it in 6 turns by forfeiting the training of a Legion, which would be worth it.

Consider building the Forbidden Palace in Neapolis, after it finishes the Legion (see below). Or, prepare to rush it in one of our cities in northern Italy.

Consider building Aqueducts, while we are still in our golden Age, to get them up fast. Ancona and Canusium seem best suited to grow bigger. After the training of Legions is finished, they could start Aqueducts next. Of course, leave other cities without Aqueducts, with Citizen production in mind.

We need more Courthouses, we need the Forbidden Palace, we need a better government form. Corruption is crippling many cities.

There are still spots for cities left in Italy:

• Croton 22
  
• Croton 69
  
• Padua 22

Military operations

I see many Legions finishing training soon. I almost feel sorry for Carthage.

I see Legions already on the way to defend our north-eastern possessions.

Consider switching 2-3 cities to Heavy Cavalry, and stationing the units near Padua-Aquilea for fast response 1 turn to get close to anywhere in north Italy, 2 turns to kill any threat). This point has been discussed previously.

Consider using Trajan (currently in Mediolanum) to make an Army of Veteran Legions III. There is action near Massilia, which would allow us to get an army victory, to start the Heroic Epic. This is vital for our conquests. Combined with our Militaristic trait this will make our new units Elites in no time.

Consider sending a Legion to our city in the Celtic teritory - there might be Carthaginians going for it as we speak. A Spearman is probably not enough to deal with a real attack.

If another Army is made, consider sending it south along with Legions and Garrisons, to conquer southern Spain. Go along the road to meet and kill any Carthaginians trying to get to Massilia. This is only possible, if we have enough Legions to leave 2 near Massilia, in case some enemy Swordsmen sneak around our forces.

I see there might be Carthaginians landing on Sicily soon, so make sure those are dead Carthaginians, when they do.

It is possible to land near Carthago without the possibility of being sunk under way, by unloading units on the Cattle tile. Risky? Not with the Army. Consider this, when planning the invasion.

[EDIT:
I almost forgot the most obvious point: upgrade all Legions ASAP
]


Foreign affairs

The Macedonians are Cautious towards us, while the Persians and the Egyptians are polite. And they have lots of Hoplites. Sice we didn't invite them to our war with Carthage, we have to be prepared to repel a very big stack, and to get Persia to war with them at any given moment now. I'm almost certain that they will come and demand something soon (Stupid AI doesn't know any other way...).

The Celts have Iron Working.

We can sell Iron to the Egyptians, once they have something to trade for it.

Attachment: rome 275 bc.jpg
This has been downloaded 38 time(s).

Last edited by Modo44 on 01-12-2004 at 18:59

	01-12-2004 19:39									#90
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I posted this at the Senate Floor Thread and probably should have posted it here.

I did this BEFORE I read Modo's post which is excellent BTW

Anyway here is the post so we have all the strategy in one spot. We should probably do this instead of posting at the Senate like I did and use the Senate for political banter

quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 quote: Originally posted by thecar i've look at the save game of CONIUS and i see nothing at looks close to the save of Aqualung71 what happened it looks like we have lost ground instead of our lead does anyone know why? Im not sure what you mean by this. We didn't lose any ground we gained by building two cities and completing the two wonders that will help our expansion boom. At this point in time our military unit production is having a hard time keeping up with our citizen production. And thats no ones fault its a common occurance at this point in the game. And in order to do a knock out blow of carthago we need more galleys. I built one during my reign and several more are in cue. Why do you ask? Because in order to land next to Carthago we need to move across four sea tiles, with three movement ships. I tried leaving the galleys forted outside of Massila and a galley from Carthago came over and damaged one of our only three galleys. I wasn't about to lose an army to a galley battle so if we are going to hit Carthago we are going to need some "sacrificial" galleys in the stack. I saw upwards of 6 to 8 galleys moving in and out of carthago heading north or coming back south from the islands (Sardinia and Corsica). So IMHO if we are going to take out Carthago we are going to need MORE GALLEYS. We have one more Citizen heading north, and several Garrisons about to be built to protect what we have already built. We NEED to reach some sort of equilibrium in building garrisons as well as Citizens. Then place cities in blocking locations to slow the settlement of the Celts and Goths, and then settle the heck out of the northern Balkans. All while we are pumping out galleys and Legoinaires in the south. We also need to upgrade all the legionaires this turn since we have Republic now. Big decisions right now for Mc Meadows are: 1. What to do with the Great Leader? 2. How many galleys do we build? 3. Should we still go the carthago first strategy knowing there are AT LEAST 6 to 8 galleys between Carthago and the islands of Corsica and Sardinia? 4. Do we try one more wonder? Or get into military production mode? (Right now our two wonder cities Neapolis and Roma are building galleys and legionaires respectively) Thats all I can think of right now. IMHO we need to go Garrison and Citizen production up north, use those southeran Alps cities for unit production and a couple of those cities just to the south of the Alps for Citizens. Rotate back and forth to regain or control population. In the south go for Legionaries and Galleys to finish off what we need to do to cathage. And consider grabbing the luxuries in Gaul and eastern Balkans that will get us baccanalia. At Diety we may need and probably will need the happiness boost.