29-12-2004 07:49									#121
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can we settle on the inland next to the inland with tory on it?
it could be good be to cut off greek war ships and allow transport on to the greek homeland
just thinking
yes or no

	30-12-2004 06:39									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Basically, Courthouses reduce corruption for the rest of the game. This can allow some better MM to shave off a turn from units for the rest of the game. Markets are the next best thing, giving additional cash for the rest of the game (we won't be researching much more). Not the best, because we have too few luxuries to make them push cities into WLTED (E for Emperor, of course ). Other builds don't do that. We have enough cash to make those rushes in approximately 3-4 turns (counting both Courthouses and Markets in most cities), and get back to units. Many cities have them already, which means no slowing down in unit production. We don't need to rush Temples in captured cities, except on islands. We get them for free in most places.

Temples don't appear on island cities, my friend, and that's most of what (at the time) we were conquering

It's not as black and white as you see it, Modo. On Italy a courthouse will only benefit us a little - say 3gp and 1 shield per turn - and I could imagine a marketplace in a local city near Rome would gather a lot more than that. And combine that with the fact that are army (at the time) was very small compared to what we were asking it to do, and I simply feel (felt) that delaying a courthouse 10-20 turns is (was) worth it.

(I'm emphasizing that I didn't check the last save, so I am not 100% sure it still applies - but I think so.)

	31-12-2004 01:12									#123
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My plan isn't either CHs or MPs but is instead both!

Virtually every city in Italy will have both by the end of my administration. (The planned exceptions are Roma and a handfull of other cities so close to Roma that a CH would not pay for itself, so those cities are getting just MPs)

	31-12-2004 03:03									#124
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn My plan isn't either CHs or MPs but is instead both!

Exactly.

	31-12-2004 07:18									#125
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here here

a wise man indeed!

	01-01-2005 00:52									#126
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I'm also planning during this adminsitration to add some troops to enforce martial law in a few of our larger cities.

	01-01-2005 03:05									#127
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn My plan isn't either CHs or MPs but is instead both! Virtually every city in Italy will have both by the end of my administration. (The planned exceptions are Roma and a handfull of other cities so close to Roma that a CH would not pay for itself, so those cities are getting just MPs)

Excellent. During my reign we could not manage this, of course, but it is good to hear our core cities will be well improved.

	01-01-2005 03:32									#128
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn I'm also planning during this adminsitration to add some troops to enforce martial law in a few of our larger cities.

Yes we cant be having a bunch of hooligans and rebel rousers stirring up trouble for our new administration..now can we?

	01-01-2005 22:24									#129
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I'd still like someone to explain to me why we shouldn't be preparing to invade the Macedons and take some land that will actually be economically useful

	01-01-2005 23:07									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 I'd still like someone to explain to me why we shouldn't be preparing to invade the Macedons and take some land that will actually be economically useful

I am afraid I cannot..for I am attending to other.."Pressing Matters"

	02-01-2005 01:13									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 I'd still like someone to explain to me why we shouldn't be preparing to invade the Macedons and take some land that will actually be economically useful

Macedonia is a key ally against Carthiage, they took Southern Corscia from Carthigage during my adminstration.

	02-01-2005 01:15									#132
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Also, Persia still has more land & pop than we do, attacking Macedonia would help Persia in that war, which we don't want to do.

We're still working on kicking the Carthigans out of Spain

	02-01-2005 01:28									#133
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Also, Persia still has more land & pop than we do, attacking Macedonia would help Persia in that war, which we don't want to do. We're still working on kicking the Carthigans out of Spain

How may we as Senators better equip thee?

How may we offer motivation for your charge?

Speak, we arent going to bite you...

I believe we as Senators may have sent you off without...properly motivating you

	02-01-2005 21:37									#134
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Macedonia is a key ally against Carthiage, they took Southern Corscia from Carthigage during my adminstration.

You say that as if it were a good thing. Southern Corsica is (was) one of the best (corruption-wise) areas we could have taken! Now that it's no longer possible to take (without warring with Macedon) we have lost one of the better areas to conquer!

(As you mention later,) Persia is indeed larger in population than we are -- in fact if they weren't I'd be shocked. Persia starts out far larger than any other civ, and it's only through eventual Roman growth to our north that we are able to grow faster than they are.

Persia however is never a serious military threat - our 6/5 legions can easily slaughter their units, and they can never have nearly as good a military.

Macedon has much better land to grow on and a much better ultimate chance of winning the game, at least militarily, than Persia. And Aqualung makes a very true point: Macedonian cities are useful to us, both in that Macedon no longer has them AND in that we have a city that can produce military units and gold. OTOH, even many carthaginian cities, not to mention Persian, are going to be worthless to us except in the taking away. I am definitely going to suggest razing the main carthaginian cities rather than keeping them - heck, we could just raze a city every couple of turns and pretty soon have no more Carthage. It's realistic AND strategically sound!

	02-01-2005 21:57									#135
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you make good and valid points Snoopy

perhaps we could lend an ear to plans you have of redeeming our World Domination efforts?

Please continue

Just..umm..DON'T GET UNDER OUR SKIN..OK?

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	02-01-2005 23:47									#136
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Macedonia is close, and weakened by the Persians. We can take them on any time. Securing Spain will give us land that is fairly easy to defend (AI can't do sea invasions), and big. Also, the Carthaginian cities in southern Spain should be pretty productive, if a Forbidden Palace is put near them.

I do see why Macedonia is a good target, but I don't understand why we should rush this, before Spain is completely in Roman hands.

	03-01-2005 00:06									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Macedonia is close, and weakened by the Persians. We can take them on any time. Securing Spain will give us land that is fairly easy to defend (AI can't do sea invasions), and big. Also, the Carthaginian cities in southern Spain should be pretty productive, if a Forbidden Palace is put near them. I do see why Macedonia is a good target, but I don't understand why we should rush this, before Spain is completely in Roman hands.

Modo you also make good and valid points..perhaps..even better ones

lets ponder folks..where are my other Senators to Ponder the awesome thinking of our Great Leaders..

	03-01-2005 00:56									#138
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Persia's units are no real threat to us, true!
But they are to Macedonia. (And so are Macedonias to Persia)

We need the basic stalemate in the Persian-Macedonian war to continue while we conquer Spain.

We do have multiple oppertunties to take Southern Corsica:

1. If Carthgagian forces take it back from Macedonians, we can take it from the Carthigans.

2. Otherwise, we can still probably take Southern Corscia on one of the first two turns of our future war with Macedonia, once were ready for it. (I'm thinking this is after taking Spain from Carthage and exiling the Celts to England. Also attacking the Gauls after Macedonia is looking better and better to trigure our victory based on how much land the Gauls have.)

	03-01-2005 01:06									#139
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Oh, I totally agree that Spain should fall before we do anything with anyone else. I just don't think we should consider Macedonia an Ally, and mostly was objecting to joncnunn's portrayal of the fall of south Corsica as a good thing. That's the problem with it - we're NOT going to war with Macedon in the immediate future, and thus some very productive cities are lost (barring Carthage retaking them, but as Modo accurately stated, the AI sucks at naval invasion.)

	03-01-2005 01:11									#140
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Also, I'm not sure why we haven't finished off Carthage yet in Spain. That's much of the reason I was against the massive marketplace/courthouse build undertaken - it took away from our military build, which at this point in the game is more useful than gold. Given we're at the end of the tech tree anyway (or at least useful tech), why do we care if we have another 50% of gold? We're going to have more than we can use anyway shortly, and we should be finishing up in Spain sooner rather than later.

	03-01-2005 01:55									#141
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good point Snoopy..explanation forthcoming I would presume joncnunn?

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	04-01-2005 00:09									#142
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The Carthigan force to retake Southern Corsica landed last turn,
they can be seen on the save on the hill.

It is a similar size force to the one that Macedonia used to take Southern Corsica in the first place.

I much rather have that stack attacking Macedonia than us.

quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 Oh, I totally agree that Spain should fall before we do anything with anyone else. I just don't think we should consider Macedonia an Ally, and mostly was objecting to joncnunn's portrayal of the fall of south Corsica as a good thing. That's the problem with it - we're NOT going to war with Macedon in the immediate future, and thus some very productive cities are lost (barring Carthage retaking them, but as Modo accurately stated, the AI sucks at naval invasion.)

	04-01-2005 00:21									#143
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A massive build of forces in Italy during my administartion wouldn't have helped the invasion of Spain during my own administartion due to distance. For that matter, several Italian towns were found to have insufficent units present to maintiagn order and so many of the units built had to stay put. Only one of the units in route from the previous administartion has actually reached the general area [a Heavy Calvary] The 2 Legionaries are still a couple of turns away.

The current administration is in much better position to be rushing units with the 50% increase in GPT [I humbly sugest some more garrisons in border towns; those are dirt cheap to rush after one turn], and they will have some closeby towns to do so once the two cities that were taken during my administartion stop resisting.

The last large Carthigan city in Spain is actually on the verge of falling [it was attacked], taking that city plus defeating that Heavy Calvary army will offically put us into mop-up mode in Spain.

quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 Also, I'm not sure why we haven't finished off Carthage yet in Spain. That's much of the reason I was against the massive marketplace/courthouse build undertaken - it took away from our military build, which at this point in the game is more useful than gold. Given we're at the end of the tech tree anyway (or at least useful tech), why do we care if we have another 50% of gold? We're going to have more than we can use anyway shortly, and we should be finishing up in Spain sooner rather than later.

	04-01-2005 05:58									#144
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn A massive build of forces in Italy during my administartion wouldn't have helped the invasion of Spain during my own administartion due to distance.

To be honest, I think that's part of the problem with this game - and not your reign specifically, but more in general - the short turn play (5 turns) is simply not long enough for people to be able to directly affect their play by their builds. Thus, no major incentive to build units, as you can't use them yourself - you have to rely on what others have built.

Admittedly, it's one of the problems with Succession games in general, but exacerbated by the short number of turns in this game relative to the ability to deliver units. Compare it to games I'm currently in, where you play 15 turns at a time when you are in the middle ages (roughly comparable to this in military tech). Of course, we couldn't do it any other way, and still have many people play the game with only a bit over 100 turns available - but it shows a need to look to the long term, particularly when judging the results of a term played. If more players had built military units during their terms, I feel we'd have been in a better position by this point in the game.

Play the scenario out yourself and compare your military position to that of our empire. We're probably in a somewhat more improved position in terms of ... improvements, but our military is pretty small compared to what i've seen in other scenarios (at similar levels and lower). I feel that we should try to enhance that position significantly compared to where we are now, militarily.

	04-01-2005 06:00									#145
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joncnunn:


Good retaliation..er..response

your the winner and..umm..everyone else take two aspirin and call me in morning

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	04-01-2005 06:04									#146
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn For that matter, several Italian towns were found to have insufficent units present to maintiagn order and so many of the units built had to stay put.

That to me is a poor use of forces. If the builds are similar to what I was planning, it means you're using useful Legion IIIs and Heavy Cavs for what amounts to guard duty, saying 1 legion III is worth 1 or 2 gpt essentially (luxury maintenance). I doubt that is the case, at least in the short term, and in the long term we're going to have more money than we know what to do with; if 10 or so more Legion IIIs show up, and 20 less gpts, we'll probably gain more gold in the long run because of the faster conquest of cities. 10 legion IIIs is enough to take 3-4 small cities at minimum, and 2 large cities (with rest period if it's well defended). I'd much rather raise the luxury rate 10% and then assign the military to the offensive.

After all, with around 80 turns or less left in the game, 1 legion III will gain only 80 gp *the whole game* in recovered luxuries - while I'm pretty sure they cost more than 80gp to buy from scratch (or even from 1 shield completed) ...

	04-01-2005 14:55									#147
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quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 To be honest, I think that's part of the problem with this game - and not your reign specifically, but more in general - the short turn play (5 turns) is simply not long enough for people to be able to directly affect their play by their builds. Thus, no major incentive to build units, as you can't use them yourself - you have to rely on what others have built.

This is wrong. Emperor Joncunn built a lot of improvements, and their presence will be visible for the rest of the game. But remember, that the decision comes from the Senate. The Senators do have an understanding of the whole Empire, and that's why we make the major decisions, not the short-termed Emperor. He is the one to make proposals, and to follow set goals to his best ability. 5 turns showed to be enough to rush all planned structures, no?

quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 Admittedly, it's one of the problems with Succession games in general, but exacerbated by the short number of turns in this game relative to the ability to deliver units. Compare it to games I'm currently in, where you play 15 turns at a time when you are in the middle ages (roughly comparable to this in military tech). Of course, we couldn't do it any other way, and still have many people play the game with only a bit over 100 turns available - but it shows a need to look to the long term, particularly when judging the results of a term played. If more players had built military units during their terms, I feel we'd have been in a better position by this point in the game.

Perhaps yes, perhaps less so. Succession games with 15 turns are just as prone to this "too short reign" thing. I've had invasions called off, or stalled, by other players who didn't do as I planned. Plus, most games are not played with Accelerated Production turned on, so they are "slower". Still, a player can affect the course of things very much. Just imagine what you'd do without all "my" Workers in the Iroquis game.

quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 Play the scenario out yourself and compare your military position to that of our empire. We're probably in a somewhat more improved position in terms of ... improvements, but our military is pretty small compared to what i've seen in other scenarios (at similar levels and lower). I feel that we should try to enhance that position significantly compared to where we are now, militarily.

I agree totally. That's why it was necessary to rush structures, that will increase our income and shield output greatly. This way we are now able to train, and rush units much faster. And I think from now on we will be doing just that, followed closely by claiming territory (from others ).

	04-01-2005 17:24									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 This is wrong. Emperor Joncunn built a lot of improvements, and their presence will be visible for the rest of the game. But remember, that the decision comes from the Senate. The Senators do have an understanding of the whole Empire, and that's why we make the major decisions, not the short-termed Emperor. He is the one to make proposals, and to follow set goals to his best ability. 5 turns showed to be enough to rush all planned structures, no?

I did not say he didn't - that was the point of saying that it wasn't directed at him specifically. And the Senate was not exactly asked if we should build military or marketplaces. Heck, I don't recall being asked much of anything in that area. For someone who's a big fan of telling other emperors what to do, he had fewer polls and fewer low-level directive posts than anyone ... so I'm not sure how you can say it was the will of the Senate.

quote: Perhaps yes, perhaps less so. Succession games with 15 turns are just as prone to this "too short reign" thing. I've had invasions called off, or stalled, by other players who didn't do as I planned. Plus, most games are not played with Accelerated Production turned on, so they are "slower". Still, a player can affect the course of things very much. Just imagine what you'd do without all "my" Workers in the Iroquis game.

That is quite true - but you have a lot longer to affect the game, and to be honest I think you're much better at the long term view than most. You also have a specific bent towards worker production, so I'd consider it a shock if you didn't build them

quote: I agree totally. That's why it was necessary to rush structures, that will increase our income and shield output greatly. This way we are now able to train, and rush units much faster. And I think from now on we will be doing just that, followed closely by claiming territory (from others ).

We could have built more units during that build, however. You don't have to build all of the marketplaces right now - and the reduced amount we're gaining from capture cities and military prominence will hurt us in the longer run possibly more than the reduced amount of gold will.

No-one disagrees that we should have been building both marketplaces and military units. I simply feel that we should have had some more meaningful military production rather than the fairly small production we've seen so far...

	04-01-2005 17:54									#149
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quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 That is quite true - but you have a lot longer to affect the game, and to be honest I think you're much better at the long term view than most. You also have a specific bent towards worker production, so I'd consider it a shock if you didn't build them

Or Courthouses, or Temples, or Barracks, or city placing, ... There are many ways to affect the game in the long run, even if given a short period only. And it's even easier in this Roman succesion, because the Emperors' actions are coordinated by the Senate.

quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 We could have built more units during that build, however. You don't have to build all of the marketplaces right now - and the reduced amount we're gaining from capture cities and military prominence will hurt us in the longer run possibly more than the reduced amount of gold will.

It's AP, remember? Meaning, each gold coin, and each shield count more. Trust me, we'll be doing much better now. Looking forward to lots of cash-rushes in the future. This will more than make up for a few turns of slower military training.

	04-01-2005 18:08									#150
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all this discussion about what we should have done is fine but it changes nothing

We need to look to the imediate future !!

I think the next few emporers need to follow a simple path, build as many troops as possible with the enhanced income we now have. Complete the task of clearing and settling Spain and then attack the Celts.

The Celts are right next door to us and if they decided to attack us in force while we have our troops so widely dispersed we would be in some trouble !!

They have also had quite some time now to build their forces so we will need plenty of troops ready to be able to swiftly plough into their lands.

There is no way the Celts can be trusted in this scenario, they will!! attack us at some point, and it would be much better for us to fight them on our terms and not when our troops are away at some distant front.

The Macedonians though close to us are not a threat to us so long as they are bogged down fighting the Persians, and we should keep them as an ally until we are much stronger, preferably when we own all of the Celtic lands.