05-11-2004 05:24									#331
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Okay. So why then, are you in favour of killing the child through a partial birth abortion, rather than saving the life of both in an emergency c-section?

Point, though my understanding is there are times when this can't work either. Sometimes the mother is too weak to handle a C-section (such as if she has highly progressed cancer or aids). Very rare, but it needs to be considered by the law.

-Drachasor

	05-11-2004 05:26									#332
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quote: Originally posted by Drachasor Point, though my understanding is there are times when this can't work either. Sometimes the mother is too weak to handle a C-section (such as if she has highly progressed cancer or aids). Very rare, but it needs to be considered by the law. -Drachasor

Though, if the mother isn't going to survive anyway...

Hmm, it is probably very, very rare in such cases. I am fairly sure there are times when an abortion can increase the likelihood of survival.

-Drachasor

	05-11-2004 05:28									#333
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quote: Point, though my understanding is there are times when this can't work either. Sometimes the mother is too weak to handle a C-section (such as if she has highly progressed cancer or aids). Very rare, but it needs to be considered by the law.

If the woman is going to have problems delivering the baby, won't these same problems come with partial birth abortion?

After all, you have to pull the child almost all the way out. All but the head.

Why would it be less safe to do an emergency c-section than to induce delivery?

BTW, the primary complication in late pregnancy, eclampsia, the preferred treatment is a c-section.

	05-11-2004 05:32									#334
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Drach, from my understanding, a partial birth abortion happens when the viable baby is almost fully outside the mother. The doctor then stops further movement of the baby out while he then kills it.

If this is correct, there is no conceivable "health" reason for the deliberate murder taking place.

	05-11-2004 05:50									#335
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quote: They just want to live in peace and be left alone by the government without fear of there lifestyle being regulated (eg: Hunting)

Homosexuals don't want their lifestyle being regulated either, but the Right doesn't seem to want to them to have that right.

	05-11-2004 07:57									#336
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Show me evidence that Oklahoma or Kansas or Mississippi are catching up to New Jersey, Connecticutt, or New York, cause otherwise you are just talking out your ass.

I may be moving to Kansas shortly, because I have a couple lines on similar-paying jobs, while expenses are cut in half compared to New Jersey.

	05-11-2004 08:04									#337
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk I may be moving to Kansas shortly, because I have a couple lines on similar-paying jobs, while expenses are cut in half compared to New Jersey.

Well,

1. Sorry

2. Wow, your sample only has a +/- 99% margin of error. Good for you

	05-11-2004 09:01									#339
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Where at in Kansas MM?

I'm a native Wichitan BTW.

	05-11-2004 09:14									#340
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Or their taxes being raised to pay for socialism or their businesses being destroyed by regulation, environmental extremism and unions, or their pro-life moral values being ridiculed by leftist, activist judges and their faith in God being mocked degraded by elitist snobs.

Ned: Everyones' taxes are going to go up big time because we owe so much money plus interest. Don't tax but spend any way Republicans have seriously damaged the future health of our country and now it isn't clear how we're going to pay off our debt and pay for the retirement of the baby boomers.

I agree that activist judges are bad but you seem to be under the impression that rightist don't nominate activist judges. They do and they've been trying to back door legislate an anti-choice/pro-religion agenda upon the rest of us.

	05-11-2004 09:23									#341
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Where at in Kansas MM? I'm a native Wichitan BTW.

My parents are living in Overland Park, so I've been looking around the KC area. found a sweet little farmhouse in Paola (using the internet), though that's a little far afield. Couple other finds are closer to KC, but that farmhouse is cool.

	05-11-2004 09:28									#342
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk My parents are living in Overland Park, so I've been looking around the KC area. found a sweet little farmhouse in Paola (using the internet), though that's a little far afield. Couple other finds are closer to KC, but that farmhouse is cool.

Nice.

That will make you the third 'Poly Kansan, joining me and Berzerker. We are overtaking even the Finns!

	05-11-2004 10:01									#343
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Mr. Fun, you again are making gay "marriage" a litmus test. I assume from this that domestic partner rights are not sufficient for you or gays in general. Right?

From MrFun's (and mine) domestic partner rights= for gays only.

Reeks of 2nd-class citizenship. Even a conservative SCOTUS should strike them down.

	05-11-2004 10:07									#344
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The Dems are also in denial when they fail to understand why businesses move South. They tell everyone that high taxes and stong unions bring jobs. But the truth lies elsewhere.

That in a consumer-driven economy, it helps to put money in the hands of consumers?

The flight of jobs from the north to south is at best a stop-gap. Those jobs will then go from there to Mexico and points south, then to China, then to places like Vietnam, Malaysia, Thailand. It's happening already; it's been happening.

	05-11-2004 10:09									#345
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quote: Originally posted by Ned a prime example of the radical left hatred...

a prime example of why no one here can take you seriously when you say, "liberals need to be nicer/more tolerant/whatever towards conservatives/republicans."

	05-11-2004 10:12									#346
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk I may be moving to Kansas shortly, because I have a couple lines on similar-paying jobs, while expenses are cut in half compared to New Jersey.

Don't forget your Jersey-ness! Keep it alive .

	05-11-2004 11:02									#347
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We already have a small colony "out there".

I am going because I see better opportunites in Kansas than I do here -- I mostly blame the NE real estate bubble for that. Rents are insane, and they are driving everything else up. I may "make more money" here, but those dollars aren't worth near as much here.

	05-11-2004 11:03									#348
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Moving from Jersey to Kansas is just like moving one ring up in Hell.

	05-11-2004 11:17									#349
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I can rent this house for less than half the rent I pay for my 800 sq. ft. apartment.

...and THIS can be had for a little less than my rent.

	05-11-2004 12:19									#350
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi If the woman is going to have problems delivering the baby, won't these same problems come with partial birth abortion? After all, you have to pull the child almost all the way out. All but the head. Why would it be less safe to do an emergency c-section than to induce delivery? BTW, the primary complication in late pregnancy, eclampsia, the preferred treatment is a c-section.

The head is smaller cut up, and that is the hardest part to get out, so it might not be as stressful, I don't know. I don't know everything that might come up, and it might be the case that if a woman easily bleeds and has trouble with blood clotting, that a C-section is a bad idea. In a bill on partial abortion ban I would want a clause in there allowing it if the doctor viewed it as the best way to preserve the health of the mother in a life-threatening situation. Not pretty, but not everything in life is pretty. It may be the case that there is no known situation currently wherein a partial-birth abortion is necessary (I gave a hypothetical, but none of us really know), but there should be room in the law if a new situation does come up.

In other cases, probably most cases, it does sound like a C-section is a better thing, even though at 6 months or 7 months, or 8 months it could well be lethal to the child (especially at 6 or 7). In any case, if partial birth abortions are done at 9 months (which I seriously doubt, but it is possible) then they are exceedingly rare, as are all late term abortions.

-Drachasor

	05-11-2004 12:21									#351
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quote: Originally posted by Theben From MrFun's (and mine) domestic partner rights= for gays only. Reeks of 2nd-class citizenship. Even a conservative SCOTUS should strike them down.

My understanding is anyone can have a domestic partnership with another willing adult. It is the first step towards gay marriage. Only a fool would deny that 30 years from now gay marriage will probably be an accepted part of life.

-Drachasor

	05-11-2004 13:35									#352
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murder which is very rare is still murder

JM

	05-11-2004 16:18									#353
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http://www.sorryeverybody.com/

	05-11-2004 17:44									#354
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Ned: Everyones' taxes are going to go up big time because we owe so much money plus interest. Don't tax but spend any way Republicans have seriously damaged the future health of our country and now it isn't clear how we're going to pay off our debt and pay for the retirement of the baby boomers. I agree that activist judges are bad but you seem to be under the impression that rightist don't nominate activist judges. They do and they've been trying to back door legislate an anti-choice/pro-religion agenda upon the rest of us.

1) Democrat myth. Growing economy automatically reduces burden. So long as there is no inflation, deficits drive growth. So long as growth exceeds the deficit, the burden decreases.

2) My how times have changed. Roe v. Wade forced abortion on an unwilling society. Trying to reverse that is now made out to be forcing anti-abortion on an unwilling society.

The problem, of course, is the whole concept of substantive due process. Just before Roe v. Wade, the Supremes thought they had finally driven a wooden stake through that vampire. They admitted that substantive due process was nothing more than judicial legislation and ursurpation of a power not delegated to the courts by the constitution, which had limited the concept to "process," meaning, "procedure."

	05-11-2004 17:50									#355
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quote: Originally posted by Theben From MrFun's (and mine) domestic partner rights= for gays only. Reeks of 2nd-class citizenship. Even a conservative SCOTUS should strike them down.

Not if states only granted domestic partnership rights to all, leaving marriages to churches.

But, even if your statement was true, it mocks the rationale publicly put forth by most gay activists in that gay couples do not have equal rights.

	05-11-2004 17:52									#356
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quote: Originally posted by Theben That in a consumer-driven economy, it helps to put money in the hands of consumers?

THE consumers? THE?

Please rephrase.

SOME consumers. SOME -- those consumers who are members of unions at the expense of everyone else through higher prices.

	05-11-2004 17:54									#357
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quote: Originally posted by Theben a prime example of why no one here can take you seriously when you say, "liberals need to be nicer/more tolerant/whatever towards conservatives/republicans."

Yeah sure. We get endless hate from the left towards religion and those on the right who point this out are the problem.

	05-11-2004 17:58									#358
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And Theban, on Scarborough Country last night, they had a representative of the Catholic League and a Jewish rabbi. Both were apopletic about the anti-religious hate coming out of the Democrat party in this election. They cited chapter and verse.

There is no wonder that people of faith no longer vote Democrat. There is no wonder that the once Democrat lock on the Catholic vote is history.

	05-11-2004 18:04									#359
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quote: Originally posted by Drachasor The head is smaller cut up, and that is the hardest part to get out, so it might not be as stressful, I don't know. I don't know everything that might come up, and it might be the case that if a woman easily bleeds and has trouble with blood clotting, that a C-section is a bad idea. In a bill on partial abortion ban I would want a clause in there allowing it if the doctor viewed it as the best way to preserve the health of the mother in a life-threatening situation. Not pretty, but not everything in life is pretty. It may be the case that there is no known situation currently wherein a partial-birth abortion is necessary (I gave a hypothetical, but none of us really know), but there should be room in the law if a new situation does come up. In other cases, probably most cases, it does sound like a C-section is a better thing, even though at 6 months or 7 months, or 8 months it could well be lethal to the child (especially at 6 or 7). In any case, if partial birth abortions are done at 9 months (which I seriously doubt, but it is possible) then they are exceedingly rare, as are all late term abortions. -Drachasor

I take it then, Drach, that you advocate killing the newborn at the request of the mother without more? All births are dangerous to a degree and all abortions can be justified medically to a degree because all abortions reduce risk -- TO A DEGREE! To allow a heath exemption without any limitations on DEGREE merely sanctions murder.

	05-11-2004 18:55									#360
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quote: Just before Roe v. Wade, the Supremes thought they had finally driven a wooden stake through that vampire. They admitted that substantive due process was nothing more than judicial legislation and ursurpation of a power not delegated to the courts by the constitution

Um... Ned? Who do you think decided Roe? The Supreme Court did NOT admit substantive due process was just judicial legislation and, if they did, Roe would have never came about, because it was based on precedent from Griswold v. Connecticut, which struck down laws banning the selling of contraceptives.