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Drachasor
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quote:
Originally posted by Berzerker
We listen to them, we don't invade Iraq. We don't listen, we invade... Regardless of whether or not invading Iraq was a good move or not, we should be the ones to decide.
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You forgot the kitchen sink. They had their chance to cooperate, they chose to let us fight the war. They chose to let us stop the Serbs too.
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Sorry, I don't socialise with any Europeans except for Poly. Most of Europe didn't lift a finger to help us so working together seems to be one-sided. |
The world is a community, and major decisions should be worked out in that community setting as much as possible. It is like you with a group of people. Before you decide to attack one of those people, you should try to work it out via other means. If you want help with something from those people, you should be polite about asking for help.
In addition, you are totally missing major issues that are involved here. Because of how Bush has run things, America can no longer be a global leader. This means that the inevitable fall of America from being the sole superpower will leave America with few allies. Bush has robbed us of future political capital for no good reason, and he just burned the notes and didn't even use them.
More and more we shall see examples of where America's attitude towards the rest of the world will cost them things we might have wanted. International treaties and agreements we might have wanted will now be much harder to accomplish. Free trade will be harder to acheive, as there will be an anti-american bias.
If you somehow think the world not liking you doesn't affect you, if your community not liking you doesn't affect you, then you are grossly ignorant of how groups of people work. America is giving up their ability to shape the future of the world so that they can tell the world to take their treaties and shove it and so they can make a mess out of Iraq and increase terrorism.
Just because sometimes acting without everyone's/anyone/s consent is sometimes needed and good in principle doesn't mean that anytime you act without everyone's/anyone's consent it is a good. It's like saying that because sometimes you need to punch or even kill a guy to defend yourself it justifies ending all arguements by punching or killing your adversary on a matter of "principle."
-Drachasor
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:19
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Influence is not the same thing, but yes, the decision rests with us. And I'm not worried about y'all attacking us, you can't even get it together to stop genocide in your own backyard. As for the US deciding your fate, all I can do is paraphrase OBL to refute that - there's a reason we didn't attack Sweden. Did the US decide Sweden's fate?
And one more thing, the reason the US keeps getting into these messes is because we are running around a dysfunctional world left behind by European colonialism.
And we became the superpower, i.e., global cop, because we led the way against the commies. I'm sure quite a few 10's of millions are happy the US "decided" their fate.
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Drachasor
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quote:
Originally posted by Pekka
Lot of Euro hating going on... makes me think, is it because of inferiority complex or penis issue? |
No, it is the massive American ego....haven't you heard of it?
Oh, and the fact that Americans on the whole really don't pay attention to the rest of the world. The natural thought process for them is to then think the rest of the world really doesn't matter all that much, except in an abstract sense (that they don't like thinking of). Hence, if the rest of the world dislikes something that America is "doing", it is an example of how they are interfering in American affairs and are commie/socialist/fascist/evil/nazis. It doesn't really matter if what America is doing involves other countries or not, because America, of course, "must" be doing the right thing. They can get away with this sort of thinking becuase they really don't pay attention to what America does outside its borders.
-Drachasor
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Drachasor
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quote:
Originally posted by Berzerker
Influence is not the same thing, but yes, the decision rests with us. And I'm not worried about y'all attacking us, you can't even get it together to stop genocide in your own backyard. As for the US deciding your fate, all I can do is paraphrase OBL to refute that - there's a reason we didn't attack Sweden. Did the US decide Sweden's fate?
And one more thing, the reason the US keeps getting into these messes is because we are running around a dysfunctional world left behind by European colonialism.
And we became the superpower, i.e., global cop, because we led the way against the commies. I'm sure quite a few 10's of millions are happy the US "decided" their fate. |
Ok, well, I agree America can decide to make its supremely stupid decisions that are bad for its future.
That's not a good thing for it to do though, but I guess you like arguing the principle of it over the particulars of the specific issues.
Oh, and we are a pretty crappy "global cop" overall. Very spotty history, some good stuff, a lot of bad stuff.
One more thing, the Middle East hates us because of what we have done in the past; we have done real, tangibly bad things over there, which we didn't rectify and are still doing in many cases. Don't pin this on Europe.
-Drachasor
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Drachasor
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quote:
Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
The election result was the American people raising a middle finger to the rest of the World |
Look, I was totally there with my comrades trying to get the left hand up to hold down the right.
The right hand was just too strong from all the exercising it gets doing all that "hard work."
I just want you to know, some of us tried to stop that middle finger, but we failed. My apologies.
-Drachasor
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:19
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Nah I just find it funny when someone always finds a way to blame Europe for everything. 'NGHGhGNh Euros find a way to balem BUsh!1'.. aneurysm must be close already.
The bipolar thinking seems to be a trend in the US, and yes I said it, many of you ESPECIALLY in the us now posses bipolar thinking and view of the world. When something is illogical, trashing that simplystic view of world, you call it realpolitiks, haven't you heard, realpolitiks that's why I never have to review my position. It's all just little weak to me. I see that as thinking where no one ever went outside their home town. It's not only unrealistic, it's also way off the board for what I think.
But the same goes for Euros as well, many do blame US for things they're not responsible for, or exaggarate things a lot and find Bush to be guilty of things he's really not.
The broken record thinkign is also quite common, the WWII argument, which holds 0 weight today, sorry but it really doesn't. And if it did.. why did you left us hanging with SU, communist invasion? Oh that's right, realpolitiks right? Well for us it's really simple, you helped them, provided lot of goods that killed us. Should I now hate the US and think they're the reason for those things? It would sound a bit silly now wouldn't it. Well, breaking news it sounds exactly the same for me and many of us who hear these arguments that even kindergarden teacher would go 'Wooaah! did you grow in a barrel raised by gay bikers?!'
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:19
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quote:
Point taken. The US is not the only nation that's made a few bad moves and I never said it was. But I don't think it will solve anything if we all keep telling each other to f@#§ off. |
I think these nations using the UN oil for food program to make a mockery of the sanctions says it all. How were we supposed to convince bribed politicians to support us? I know why many Europeans opposed us, they didn't want to become targets for terrorist attacks. I don't blame them...
quote:
Lot of Euro hating going on... makes me think, is it because of inferiority complex or penis issue? |
Okay, we'll get Long Dong Silver to bash y'all  So the thread is about Euro-bashing? I thought it was about US bashing... Or did it become a Euro-bashing thread the moment someone defended the US?
quote:
The world is a community, and major decisions should be worked out in that community setting as much as possible. |
The key words being "as much as possible". When it's no longer possible, it's no longer a "community decision".
quote:
In addition, you are totally missing major issues that are involved here. Because of how Bush has run things, America can no longer be a global leader. This means that the inevitable fall of America from being the sole superpower will leave America with few allies. Bush has robbed us of future political capital for no good reason, and he just burned the notes and didn't even use them. |
I agree "he" is incompetent, but I don't want to be a superpower. I don't want the US sending Americans to fight every damn war that needs to be fought by people closer to the dispute. But now I'm understanding why Bush et al got mad at France, Russia, and whomever else was bought off by Saddam. I thought the scandal at the UN was just GOP nonsense but it's looking more and more like the UN was compromised. So blaming us for ignoring a compromised UN is illogical...
quote:
More and more we shall see examples of where America's attitude towards the rest of the world will cost them things we might have wanted. International treaties and agreements we might have wanted will now be much harder to accomplish. Free trade will be harder to acheive, as there will be an anti-american bias. |
Europe likes free trade? I sure hope you're right on your other predictions, I don't like the US throwing it's weight around to coerce or bribe other countries. If we have less weight to throw around, great!
quote:
If you somehow think the world not liking you doesn't affect you, if your community not liking you doesn't affect you, then you are grossly ignorant of how groups of people work. America is giving up their ability to shape the future of the world so that they can tell the world to take their treaties and shove it and so they can make a mess out of Iraq and increase terrorism. |
One of my criticisms of GOP mouthpieces was about their pie in the sky announcements of success when success is not determined by a few weeks or even months but by years. Our venture in Afghanistan after the Russians invaded looked like a success but about a decade later the Taliban was in power and letting Al Qaeda operate. It took the US several years to help economies damaged by WWII to recover and I'd call the Marshall Plan a success. So time will tell, not pre-mature snapshots. My main complaint with what Bush did was the diversion of resources away from getting Al Qaeda and OBL in Afghanistan and what looks like a bungled operation at Tora Bora, but I also believe Iraqis deserve the chance to create their own future after a ~century of meddling by the west.
quote:
Just because sometimes acting without everyone's/anyone/s consent is sometimes needed and good in principle doesn't mean that anytime you act without everyone's/anyone's consent it is a good. |
Hmm...sounds like you believe the US should have been the one to decide.
quote:
It's like saying that because sometimes you need to punch or even kill a guy to defend yourself it justifies ending all arguements by punching or killing your adversary on a matter of "principle." |
You'd get that awkward silent moment if the arguing was done and everyone just stood around.
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lightblue
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L'Boro, UK
Oct 2001
time: 05:19
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I think a large part of the confusion in most of Europe is the complete bafflement at how the election wasn't a slamdunk for Kerry to start with.
I think the main thing that illustrates the vast gap between Republicans (mainly) and a very large majority of Europeans is the fact that approx 50% of republican voters declared that moral issues were the dominant factor in deciding who to vote for. Voting against what is best for your wallet, and in favour of what basically amounts to treason by taking a country to war on false pretenses just because the other person wants to reduce government interference in people's lives and let them make their own choices wrt abortion, gay marriage and the like is a foreign concept for us.
I see people who vote for that reason as busybodies who feel the need to interfere in other people's lives just because they're own lives are so insignificant and empty. I don't get why if you don't support abortion, you just don't have an abortion, but not force other people to share your beliefs. I think the christian fundamentalists (or however you want to describe them as) will be in the long run at least as problematic as islamic fundamentalists.
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WotanAnubis
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quote:
Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
The election result was the American people raising a middle finger to the rest of the World |
Not really. According to my newspaper the large majority of Bush voters believe that most all people not living in America also think Bush is doing a good job and should have his four more years.
So really, it's just a slight majority of the American people being completely oblivious to what's going on outside their borders.
Nothing new here then.
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:19
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quote:
Hence, if the rest of the world dislikes something that America is "doing", it is an example of how they are interfering in American affairs and are commie/socialist/fascist/evil/nazis. |
And this interference was crooked politicians using the UN to screw the US and help Saddam defeat the sanctions.
quote:
Ok, well, I agree America can decide to make its supremely stupid decisions that are bad for its future. |
That remains to be seen, Bush, or should I say his advisors, have shown incompetence in the conduct of the war but that doesn't mean Iraq will be the mess it was under Saddam.
quote:
That's not a good thing for it to do though, but I guess you like arguing the principle of it over the particulars of the specific issues. |
It is the principle that matters, and you're ignoring some relevant particulars - like the UN oil for food scam. Factor that into the equation and all this talk of cooperation and communal decisions becomes hot air.
quote:
Oh, and we are a pretty crappy "global cop" overall. Very spotty history, some good stuff, a lot of bad stuff. |
It's hard work
quote:
One more thing, the Middle East hates us because of what we have done in the past; we have done real, tangibly bad things over there, which we didn't rectify and are still doing in many cases. Don't pin this on Europe. |
Iraq was fabricated by the Brits who saw wisdom in having 3 antagonistic populations in one country to facilitate the removal of oil while they're fighting. The French were mad about losing it's colony in Vietnam so we got drawn into that mess. Israel? I believe the Brits pushed that one too. Kuwait? Another British fabrication. The entire region has European fingerprints all over it...
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the WWII argument, which holds 0 weight today, sorry but it really doesn't. |
Well does it or doesn't it?
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And if it did.. why did you left us hanging with SU, communist invasion? Oh that's right, realpolitiks right? |
And yet Finland is "free" now and it didn't take another bloody war with several million more casualties.
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Well for us it's really simple, you helped them, provided lot of goods that killed us. Should I now hate the US and think they're the reason for those things? It would sound a bit silly now wouldn't it. |
No, it wouldn't. But I don't know what you're talking about either. Murmansk convoys?
quote:
Well, breaking news it sounds exactly the same for me and many of us who hear these arguments that even kindergarden teacher would go 'Wooaah! did you grow in a barrel raised by gay bikers?!' |
I'd be mad at the US for helping the commies kill Fins. I'm mad at the US for helping Saddam kill Iranians and Kurds.
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04-11-2004 14:45
It's not the first time I hear this nonsense. Lots of people here dislike Bush, but this doesn't mean they would resort to violence just for others being American. Most people just don't give a damn what's going on over there, or at most shake their heads and move on with their daily business.
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