17-11-2004 23:15									#151
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris You have some points, but things like this are just pathetic trolls.

Why pathetic? Looks like you having fun.

	17-11-2004 23:27									#152
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Hmmm, who else does that sound like? The Iraqis, perhaps? And we both know that Iraqi insurgents can't remain in any place they occupy if the US military actually comes after them in force.

Still, in Iraq they can keep under their control big cities for months. And when US army finally comes after them, there starts heavy fighting. In Chechnya they can't take even a small village under their control, and there is not SUCH heavy fighting. Thus it's pretty obvious for me that combat capabilities of Iraqi insurgents WAYYYYYYYYYYY greater then capabilities of insurgents our army hunt down in Chechnya.

quote: The only way that would or could be the case would be because of the US dumbing down it's capabilities for the reasons I stated above (and you somewhat agreed that was quite possible).

It is possible, but it's also possible that Russian jets are actually better than American ones.

	18-11-2004 00:28									#153
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Serb didn't reply to my post in this thread.
I feel forgotten, lonely and sad

	18-11-2004 00:54									#154
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Ah, YES! I've seen pictures of that tank before... I believe it was burning in the streets of Grozny.

They should be pretty different from pictures of burning Abramses in streets of Baghdad.

	18-11-2004 00:55									#155
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Heresson Serb didn't reply to my post in this thread. I feel forgotten, lonely and sad

What post?

	18-11-2004 01:03									#156
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Heresson Serb didn't reply to my post in this thread. I feel forgotten, lonely and sad

Tyskie, might be just what you need right now

	18-11-2004 01:47									#157
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Serb Aside you I have at least two people here who actually know what I'm talking about (David Floyd and Oerdin). It's not surprising, since there was a tread on Apolyton about this some time ago. If you type 'USAF Indian Airforce' in google, you'll get over 5000 links. But I'll give you a couple of links exclusively for you here, just to save your time: Although service officials have been reluctant to detail how the Indians performed against the six F-15Cs from the 3rd Wing that participated in Cope India, Rep. Duke Cunningham (R-CA) said in a Feb. 26 House Appropriations defense subcommittee hearing that U.S. F-15Cs were defeated more than 90 percent of the time in direct combat exercises against the IAF. The rest of the article here: http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/exercis...-article01.html U.S. warned it could lose air supremacy Friday, June 25, 2004 WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- United States must modernize its fighter jets to maintain air supremacy, a top Air Force general said Wednesday citing the success of advanced Russian-made jets against American planes in a recent exercise as signaling an erosion of its overwhelming advantage. The rest of the article: http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/06/23/ai...supremacy.reut/ Is CNN enough creditable source for you? Are you happy now?

You are aware that there are a lot of people who are questioning the large sums of money spent current programs to build next generation fighters? And that there are accusations that this is being hyped be defenders of those programs?

	18-11-2004 01:50									#158
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Serb Still, in Iraq they can keep under their control big cities for months. And when US army finally comes after them, there starts heavy fighting. In Chechnya they can't take even a small village under their control, and there is not SUCH heavy fighting. Thus it's pretty obvious for me that combat capabilities of Iraqi insurgents WAYYYYYYYYYYY greater then capabilities of insurgents our army hunt down in Chechnya. It is possible, but it's also possible that Russian jets are actually better than American ones.

One city, which could have been taken in April, but wasnt out of deference to local (Iraqi) politics. A deference that has not been exercised by Russia in Chechnya.

And of course counterinsurgency is largely intell. Russia has been in Chechnya (the second time) since 1999. And then there was the first time. And of course Chechnya was under Russian control for over 150 years prior 1991. Plenty of time to develop intell networks, local loyalists, etc. Which the US has largely been building from scratch since March 2003.

	18-11-2004 01:59									#159
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

wrt to afghanistan. I beleive we have about 15,000 troops there, as much as we ever had.

as for control - in the southeastern, Pashtun half of the country. The kharzai govt controls all the cities, all the roads, and exercises considerable control over some of the rural areas. Slightly better than Soviet control.

In the Dari speaking northwest, the govt now controls the entire area except for the North east, which is still controlled by Tajik warlords. Who however acknowledge (on paper) the authority of govt, and are not opposed to the US presence.

Theres certainly no equivalent in Afghanistan today to an insurgent redoubt like the Panshjir Valley was during the Soviet occupation.

	18-11-2004 02:00									#160
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark You are aware that there are a lot of people who are questioning the large sums of money spent current programs to build next generation fighters? And that there are accusations that this is being hyped be defenders of those programs?

Yes I am.

But it's such a great case for trolling about.

Even your Emperor admitted that USAF performed badly.

	18-11-2004 02:01									#161
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Serb I'm. Basically you are just a bunch of butchers who invade sovereign countries and violate international laws.

Yet Putin openly endorsed Bush before our election, and claimed his defeat would signal a victory for terrorists.

	18-11-2004 02:04									#162
	Got spare money?

Putin is a wise man. Bush leads US to its end.

	18-11-2004 02:20									#163
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark One city, which could have been taken in April, but wasnt out of deference to local (Iraqi) politics. A deference that has not been exercised by Russia in Chechnya. And of course counterinsurgency is largely intell. Russia has been in Chechnya (the second time) since 1999. And then there was the first time. And of course Chechnya was under Russian control for over 150 years prior 1991. Plenty of time to develop intell networks, local loyalists, etc. Which the US has largely been building from scratch since March 2003.

Look, I was only trying to say that when I turn-on TV, I see American troops fighting here and there in Iraq, storming cities controlled by insurgents, perform airstrikes, fire artillery, etc., but do not see such scale of warfare in Chechnya (I' have not seen such warfare in Chechnya since the beggining of 2000). And still most of the people here believe that Russians are losing in Chechnya. Considering this, I ask once again- if we are losing, then what the hell are you doing in Iraq?

	18-11-2004 02:26									#164
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark wrt to afghanistan. I beleive we have about 15,000 troops there, as much as we ever had. as for control - in the southeastern, Pashtun half of the country. The kharzai govt controls all the cities, all the roads, and exercises considerable control over some of the rural areas. Slightly better than Soviet control. In the Dari speaking northwest, the govt now controls the entire area except for the North east, which is still controlled by Tajik warlords. Who however acknowledge (on paper) the authority of govt, and are not opposed to the US presence. Theres certainly no equivalent in Afghanistan today to an insurgent redoubt like the Panshjir Valley was during the Soviet occupation.

Well, fine then. Last time I heard about Afghanistan (it isn't a top story here), local warlords didn't care a **** about Kharzai government or US army. It's good if things changed.

Or perhaps Al-Queda's soldiers simply busied elsewhere?

	18-11-2004 02:36									#165
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Serb Look, I was only trying to say that when I turn-on TV, I see American troops fighting here and there in Iraq, storming cities controlled by insurgents, perform airstrikes, fire artillery, etc., but do not see such scale of warfare in Chechnya (I' have not seen such warfare in Chechnya since the beggining of 2000). And still most of the people here believe that Russians are losing in Chechnya. Considering this, I ask once again- if we are losing, then what the hell are you doing in Iraq?

Lets see, in May they killed Kadyrov. We've still managed to keep Allawi alive, at least

I guess its a question of perspective. If after 5 years we're not doing better in Iraq than you are in Chechnya now, I'll be very concerned. If after 150 years ........

	18-11-2004 02:40									#166
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Serb Well, fine then. Last time I heard about Afghanistan (it isn't a top story here), local warlords didn't care a **** about Kharzai government or US army. It's good if things changed.

Yup. The strongest warlord was Ismael Khan, "emir of Herat". He and a lesser warlord were fighting it out, and Kharzai sent Afghan National Army troops in to restore order. He subsequently dismissed Khan from all his posts and appointed a loyalist governor. Since the first couple of days there has been no opposition (that ive heard about) in Herat. Similarly for Mazar i Sharif.

Not surprising your media doesnt highlight Kharzai govt successes.

	18-11-2004 02:57									#167
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Lets see, in May they killed Kadyrov. We've still managed to keep Allawi alive, at least

We've managed to keep Kadyrov alive and in charge of Chechnya for about five years. Remind me, when this Allawi puppet of yours became new shah of Iraq?

quote: I guess its a question of perspective. If after 5 years we're not doing better in Iraq than you are in Chechnya now, I'll be very concerned. If after 150 years ........

See you after 150 years then.

	18-11-2004 02:59									#168
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Not surprising your media doesnt highlight Kharzai govt successes.

Sure it's not surprising, news from Iraq contain much more action.

	18-11-2004 03:01									#169
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Uhhh, Serb...no offense man, but given the state of the Russian economy in general (good strides, but still a ways to go), I'd be surprised if the Russian Army's capabilities were much above the Iraqi's.

You're as patriotic as they come, and I respect that (cos I'm the same way 'bout our boys in uniform), but your economy is in the proverbial $hitter, and when that heads south, stuff like tons of training for the troops and fancy new toys tends to get back-burnered.

Nonetheless, to you for your diehard patriotism!

-=Vel=-

	18-11-2004 04:06									#170
	Remove this text

Frankly, I don't see any coalition of Russian with China and India as being anti-U. S.. Perhaps anti-Europe, but certainly not the US. Our relationships with Russia and China and India are growing stronger on a constant basis. We see more eye to eye with Russia on the war in terror for example, then the Europeans do. We are on the same page with respect to this issue with China and India, far more so than the Europeans.

When it comes to business relationships, China and India are growing closer to the United States than they are to Russia. It would be almost inexplicable that either these two countries would risk that relationship for any reason.

As to Brazil, while the leadership of Brazil may be solidly Marxist, the common folk in Brazil think highly of United States. When they learn any second-language, they do not learn Russian, they learn English. When they move from Brazil, they do not move to Russia. They move to United States. There is a significant Brazilian population in the United States today that has strong ties to family in Brazil. I see no long-term relationship that is anti-U. S. that would find support in Brazil.

The bottom line is that I do not see that Russia would form anti-American alliances with China, India and Brazil. Russia might be seeking better relations with these countries, but not on the basis of anti-Americanism.

	18-11-2004 04:07									#171
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Uhhh, Serb...no offense man, but given the state of the Russian economy in general (good strides, but still a ways to go), I'd be surprised if the Russian Army's capabilities were much above the Iraqi's.

There is only one way to check this out- don't be shy come and get some.

	18-11-2004 04:13									#172
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Serb There is only one way to check this out- don't be shy come and get some.

*hits Russian tank; tank falls appart*

	18-11-2004 04:18									#173
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Oh it's you again.

	18-11-2004 04:20									#174
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

You were asking for it when you said "come and get some."

	18-11-2004 04:23									#175
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Are you absolutely sure you really want some?

Last edited by Serb on 18-11-2004 at 04:32

	18-11-2004 04:32									#176
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

*hauls out Abrams tank*

BOOM

	18-11-2004 04:38									#177
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Looks like you think that Apolyton OT it's some kind of kindergarten where you can play toy soldiers on-line.
Just out of curiousity, what kind of sh!t are you smoking, man?

	18-11-2004 05:36									#178
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Does anyone want to pull out my toy soldier and play with it?

	18-11-2004 05:40									#179
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Serb,

quote: Still, in Iraq they can keep under their control big cities for months. And when US army finally comes after them, there starts heavy fighting.

Well, the US only has about 135,000 troops occupying a large nation with 20+ million people. Of course it's gonna be tougher to hold down the territory than it is in Chechnya.

quote: In Chechnya they can't take even a small village under their control, and there is not SUCH heavy fighting. Thus it's pretty obvious for me that combat capabilities of Iraqi insurgents WAYYYYYYYYYYY greater then capabilities of insurgents our army hunt down in Chechnya.

Either that, or the US is a little more unwilling to blast the hell out of civilians.

quote: It is possible, but it's also possible that Russian jets are actually better than American ones.

Then, on that basis, as a counterexample, I'm just gonna cite the performance of the Israeli Air Force against the various Arab airforces in various wars to "prove" the superiority of US aircraft.

Odin, we really should've just taken down the Soviet Union after World War 2 when we had the chance. We wouldn't even be having this conversation now

1945 - Air supremacy? Check. Atomic supremacy? Check. Economic supremacy? Check. Industrial supremacy? Check. Ability to mobilize more men? Check - the Soviets already lost all of theirs except for what they had. Ability to produce more tanks and artillery? Check. Naval supremacy? Check.

Hmmmm, that checklist sounds like a recipe for a nice ass-stomping of the Soviet Union

	18-11-2004 06:54									#180
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Serb, Well, the US only has about 135,000 troops occupying a large nation with 20+ million people. Of course it's gonna be tougher to hold down the territory than it is in Chechnya.

Well, well, well, I thought US is the super power with over 350 million of population. Looks like I was mistaken and this so-called super power can't find enough military strenght to deal with the third world country devastated by years of blockade.

quote: Either that, or the US is a little more unwilling to blast the hell out of civilians.

Yeah, right. Next thing you'll tell me that USAF unwilling to bomb cities, AS army unwilling to bombard cities with its artillery and unwilling to use banned weapons, that US soldiers unwilling to tortue their POWs and unwilling to finish-off wounded who are faking to be f*cking dead, unwilling to cream their pants screaming "oh boy!!!" while killing people with cruise missiles, etc, etc, etc. Go ahead, educate me.

quote: Then, on that basis, as a counterexample, I'm just gonna cite the performance of the Israeli Air Force against the various Arab airforces in various wars to "prove" the superiority of US aircraft.

I heard they beaten your airforce in excersises some time ago, just like Indians did. Perhaps IAF is the best airforce of the world?

quote: Odin, we really should've just taken down the Soviet Union after World War 2 when we had the chance. We wouldn't even be having this conversation now

Wrong. We would have this conversation, but all of us would speak Russian.

quote: 1945 - Air supremacy? Check. Atomic supremacy? Check. Economic supremacy? Check. Industrial supremacy? Check. Ability to mobilize more men? Check - the Soviets already lost all of theirs except for what they had. Ability to produce more tanks and artillery? Check. Naval supremacy? Check. Hmmmm, that checklist sounds like a recipe for a nice ass-stomping of the Soviet Union

Lack off balls? Check.
Check and mate.
Your advanced, industrialized, maritime country can't wage real wars and can't sustain real casualities. War vs. USSR would have cost you millions of lives. Had your leaders have chance to destroy USSR without such casualties they would use it. But since they weren't idiots they have seen that war vs. USSR means millions of American deaths and there is no 100% guaranty of victory.

Have a nice day. I'm going to