16-11-2004 06:34									#31
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

BTW St. Marcus the tap shows a Marine not a soldier. If you're going to type hysterics then please at least get the terms straight. As a soldier I want people to know little facts like that.

	16-11-2004 06:53									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by axi From what I heard in the tape, the soldier, scared, shouts that "he's faking he's dead" and empties a whole clip on the man. He definitely lost his nerve.

That's not what I saw on CNN. The marines were calm and talking in low voices. And there was only one shot.

	16-11-2004 07:53									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Isn't a marine a soldier then. Their goal is to kill.. what's the difference

	16-11-2004 08:12									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Apparently, the marine had been shot the day before, was patched up, and sent back into the battle. He might have flipped. It's a shame that this stuff happens in battle, and he'll probably be charged with murder.

	16-11-2004 08:39									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Trajanus Isn't a marine a soldier then. Their goal is to kill.. what's the difference

Marines work for the Marine Corp who are a Department of the Navy organization. The Marines' traditional job was to ride around on ships and to act as a quick reaction force which could be completely self contained for a month or two but not longer. The Army is the main land warfare arm and it is owned by the Department of the Army. The Army is designed to fight full on wars (like WW1 & 2, Korea, the Civil War etc...) for years on end. The Army is much, much, much larger then the Marine Corp, has far more armored vehicles, uses different uniforms.

Essentially you have asked "Isn't a soldier a sailor" and the anwser is no. They do fundimentally different jobs.

	16-11-2004 08:41									#36
	Got spare money?

I saw the video. The marine patrol calmly enters a building where there are several wounded Iraqis lying motionless by the wall. (They were wounded during an earlier firefight, treated by US forces and left there).

One of the marine walks up to a wounded guy and just shoots him dead.

If he's an ordinary grunt, he might be charged and jailed.

If he's an officer, five will get you ten that he'll just get a discharge from the marines.

	16-11-2004 08:43									#37
	Remove this text

He'll get charged and he was a grunt.

	16-11-2004 08:46									#38
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Marines work for the Marine Corp who are a Department of the Navy organization. The Marines' traditional job was to ride around on ships and to act as a quick reaction force which could be completely self contained for a month or two but not longer. The Army is the main land warfare arm and it is owned by the Department of the Army. The Army is designed to fight full on wars (like WW1 & 2, Korea, the Civil War etc...) for years on end. The Army is much, much, much larger then the Marine Corp, has far more armored vehicles, uses different uniforms. Essentially you have asked "Isn't a soldier a sailor" and the anwser is no. They do fundimentally different jobs.

Actually, in the real world, "soldier" just means someone who is a member of the military...

quote: 1. One who serves in an army. 2. An enlisted person or a noncommissioned officer. 3. An active, loyal, or militant follower of an organization. 4. 1. A sexually undeveloped form of certain ants and termites, having large heads and powerful jaws. 2. One of a group of honeybees that swarm in defense of a hive.

In the military it's no doubt more specific, but to anyone else, a military man on the ground in enemy territory is a "soldier".

	16-11-2004 08:50									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

The video thanks to free republic:
http://www.asjewelers.com/FRstuff/9a/Capped.wmv

This is O'reily at the start, it cuts in at the end of the first "HES FAKING HES ****ING DEAD", says it again, the screen goes to black, and I hear what sounds like a burst of fire. The tape is fairly poor quality, anyone have a better one(perhaps the one Tingkai watched since they apparently didn't black out the picture for him).

	16-11-2004 08:59									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

The video I saw was on CNN. It starts when the patrol is walking up to the building.

CNN blacked out the actual shooting, but the talking heads said the guy shoots him. I couldn't hear what the guy says. Only one shot heard.

	16-11-2004 08:59									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Yeah, MSNBC is reporting the Iraqi was an insurgent but he had been wounded by a different group of Marines who had patched the insurgent up and left the insurgents to be picked up by a later patrol. The second patrol arrived but had not been informed about the wounded insugents that had been placed in the building.

Earlier that day another Marine was killed by a booby trap set off by a dying Iraqi insurgent who was saying he wanted to surrender and recieve medical care. Also the Marine who shot the wounded insurgent had himself been wounded the day before but had been returned to duty; it seems he was likely suffering from combat stress or at least wounded combat personel who are returned to the lines often suffer from combat stress.

It seems the wounded Iraqi began moving when the soldiers entered and the Marine shouted about the insurgent faking he was dead and then fired a single shot from either an M-4 or a combat shotgun. It sucks, it was a bad situation, and that guy will probably go to jail.

	16-11-2004 09:18									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: At the end of the day that's what makes us better then Saddam; if one of our guys breaks the law he goes to jail while Saddam gave them a medal.

Saddam gave medals to soldiers who violated his laws?

	16-11-2004 09:44									#43
	Inflate your Upload Space

It's like a drunk driving fatality but "we" - the government - got him drunk and put him behind the wheel and told him to drive... I have a problem jailing the guy given the circumstances. I mean, if we jail him we should jail Bush for invading Iraq on the same premise - a perceived immediate threat.

	16-11-2004 11:04									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The major problem in my experience is determining who is unarmed and who is just pretending to be unarmed. The "double tapping" law which covers when you can shot a combatant and when you must care for him has a refrence which might be of help. If your line of advance has not reached the enemies position and if the enemy has not made absolutely clear that he wants to surrender then he is a legal target. Once your line of advance has passed him then it is assumed he is wounded or wants to surrender unless he behaives in a combant style.

So lying crumpled against the wall half unconscious is combat-style behavior?

	16-11-2004 11:08									#45
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

The military is a large organization, and the US Can't guarantee the behavior of every soldier.

As this happened within the US ranks, the person who did such a deed will be punished and seriously.

Had a member of the insurgency did such a thing to a US soldier, he would be a hero for killing an American. If they did get mad at him, it'd be for not capturing him so they could behead him later.

	16-11-2004 11:10									#46
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi As this happened within the US ranks, the person who did such a deed will be punished and seriously.

Maybe, maybe not.

	16-11-2004 11:13									#47
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi The military is a large organization, and the US Can't guarantee the behavior of every soldier. As this happened within the US ranks, the person who did such a deed will be punished and seriously. Had a member of the insurgency did such a thing to a US soldier, he would be a hero for killing an American. If they did get mad at him, it'd be for not capturing him so they could behead him later.

What is your point by claiming the obvious that insurgents have no qualms about committing atrocities?


That because they do such terrible things, it is okay when an occassional American soldier does such a thing?

	16-11-2004 11:13									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Correct me if I'm off but WEREN'T ALL CIVILIANS AND NONCOMBATANTS TOLD TO GET THE HECK OUT?

No, they were told that, if they stayed in their homes, they wouldn't be hurt. No one declared Falluja to be a free-fire zone.

*********

But Holy [insert your most extreme explicative here]! This is a nightmare!!

The Arab street and press are going to blow this all out of proportion, and we're going to look worse than those vermin who saw off the heads of hostages. The only way I see to fix this mess is to arrest the Marine, try him quick, convict him and shoot him.

	16-11-2004 13:23									#49
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

This would never happen in a Tom Clancy novel

	16-11-2004 13:28									#50
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Had a member of the insurgency did such a thing to a US soldier, he would be a hero for killing an American. If they did get mad at him, it'd be for not capturing him so they could behead him later.

Yes and they are terrorists. Your point is?

	16-11-2004 14:04									#51
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Correct me if I'm off but WEREN'T ALL CIVILIANS AND NONCOMBATANTS TOLD TO GET THE HECK OUT? If you move they're going to shoot you. Either you're the enemy or someone Darwin dictates should be removed from the gene pool.

Nice attitude!

Why don't you set up a few extermination camps while you're at it?

Oh, and don't bother to tell me when it's time to salute the Führer, I won't be on your side.

	16-11-2004 14:30									#52
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Ghengis, while many people did leave the city, I believe an estimated 30,000 to 50,000 thousand didn't. This isn't some little farming community that's a battleground, it's an actual city.

	16-11-2004 14:52									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I see that the atrocity apologists are out in full force.

	16-11-2004 15:11									#54
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa Yes and they are terrorists. Your point is?

Terrorists are still human beings. Are they exempt from being judged by the same morals that we apply to the marines?

The point is that there's a double standard. If you think the double standard is fair because America should lead by example then you're unrealistic. The guys who are actually putting their lives on the line can't meet your fantastic standards. And the insurgents, who seem to go out of their way to commit war crimes (IIRC murder, pretending to be civilians, and I think booby trapping dead bodies are all against the GC) are given a free pass because that's the European notion of fair.

Nobody here knows what happened there, nobody there even really knows what happened. But we can be sure that the military takes significant measures to instill discipline, and will maintain that by punishing people for crimes. The noble savages will probably not make any effort to match the Americans in this regard.

	16-11-2004 15:18									#55
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

That chap is in a world of **** for what he did. There's no ****ing chance that they will let him get away with that one. The US can't really afford letting criminals that are reported about in the media get away with it. The paramount importance of good PR dictates this.

Another question, that we'll probably never get a really good answer to, is how the marine corps acts when there's no outsider there to see it. War crimes in this day and age is somewhat like a tree in the forest; If there's no one to hear it fall, it doesn't make a sound. It all comes down to the integrety of each unit I suppose. Let us hope that the soldiers (yes, soldiers, the rest of the world doesn't care what you call them. "A rose by any other name...") that do things like that when there's no camera around gets the same threatment.

Oh well, it's not really a problem unique to this particular situation, is it?

	16-11-2004 15:18									#56
	Got spare money?

KH, if this were a clear case of an American murdering an insurgent, I'd agree with you, and I wouldn't have a word to say in the marine's defense. But from what I know this seems more like manslaughter, which is unfortunate, but not a war crime.

Even playing Halo I get nervous and jumpy, and that's just a video game. If I were being shot at for real, it's fifty fifty if I'd shoot like crazy or just **** my pants.

Besides, this is the same town that strung up and mutilated four American contractors. Anybody wants to use American corpses to decorate their city had better arm themselves, and not whine and cry when we make some mistakes.

	16-11-2004 15:27									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Felch Anybody wants to use American corpses to decorate their city had better arm themselves, and not whine and cry when we make some mistakes.

How do you know this man was involved in the BBQ party?

By the way, you can say the same thing about those civilian contractors: "If you want to help your country invade another country, you had better arm yourself and not whine and cry when the invaded people take revenge on you"

	16-11-2004 15:32									#58
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Felch Besides, this is the same town that strung up and mutilated four American contractors. Anybody wants to use American corpses to decorate their city had better arm themselves, and not whine and cry when we make some mistakes.

So, you're holding an entire city of about 300.000 people responsible for that action?

Well, that's another nice attitude...

	16-11-2004 15:36									#59
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Heh, I like how all the holier-than-thou Scandanavians take one inflamatory paragraph out of three to fret about.

That's your problem right there. You'd rather fight the easy fight, make me look like some nitwit hill-billy, instead of actually arguing the key points that I made. You're nothing but a bunch of limp-wristed whiners. When you want to tear apart what I say, tear the whole thing apart, not just the part that hurt your precious little feelings.

	16-11-2004 15:39									#60
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Felch Besides, this is the same town that strung up and mutilated four American contractors. Anybody wants to use American corpses to decorate their city had better arm themselves, and not whine and cry when we make some mistakes.

You should listen to yourself.

You liberated that wounded guy permanently. Congratulations.