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Guardian
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Bergen, Norway
Feb 2001
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Felch
Heh, I like how all the holier-than-thou Scandanavians take one inflamatory paragraph out of three to fret about.
That's your problem right there. You'd rather fight the easy fight, make me look like some nitwit hill-billy, instead of actually arguing the key points that I made. You're nothing but a bunch of limp-wristed whiners. When you want to tear apart what I say, tear the whole thing apart, not just the part that hurt your precious little feelings. |
I'm not talking about my feelings here, I'm talking about 300 000 people I do not know and your insinuation that somehow they were all guilty of a crime commited in their city.
If that's the attitude, then why don't we just nuke all cities that ever had a violent crime?
Of course we won't do that, and nobody's saying we should, but I hope you see my point.
That said, I fully understand that a person can get a little trigger happy in situations like this, with enemies creeping around all over the place and were you can't cross the street without having 3 or 4 guys trying to kill you. Of course I understand that. And having enemies who like to masquerade as civilians, pretend to surrender or hide behind the wounded sure doesn't help.
Like yourself, I have experienced this myself just from playing computer games. I have personally killed both women and children in those games, for no other reason than because I was jumpy and they appeared in the wrong places at the wrong time.
These things happen. I don't disagree with you there.
But when you go from there to all but saying that an entire city is somehow responsible for four bodies being strung up on a bridge, then, yeah - you lost me.
I live in Bergen myself. This city is actually slightly smaller than Falluja, and about 99% of the time, I don't even know about stuff that happens here unless I hear about it in the news or something. With literally hundreds of thousands of people running around, there's just no way in hell anyone could possibly know what everyone's doing.
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Felch
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Germantown, Maryland
Sep 2001
time: 00:18
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If you're disgusted by my insinuation about collective guilt, good. It was a troll, and anybody who doesn't disagree with it is a tool.
I'm glad you see my point about people getting trigger happy, since that was the real meat and potatoes of what I said. And I'm glad that we have common ground there.
Sorry about my trash talking, I just get annoyed when people take the joke too seriously and miss the whole point. You're a good guy by what I read, I'd just wish folks here would consider a little about what's going on in the heads of Americans a little more before they go talking about atrocities. We're wrong quite often, but I think we deserve credit for trying to fix what we break, and trying to make something right out of a ****ed up world. We may be the source of all the world's problems in your eyes, but we're also the first country to have this sort of power and responsibilty. There are no rules or traditions for us to rely on here, and it's annoying and frustrating to be nitpicked by a bunch of countries who have willfully bowed out of any major international role.
I'm not a fan of the Iraq war, but I get really pissed when guys my age are being called murderers by people who don't know what they're going through. That's all.
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Guardian
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Bergen, Norway
Feb 2001
time: 06:18
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Felch: Apology accepted.
And no, I don't think of America as "the source of all the world's problems", although I do at times think you look more like a global bully than a global cop. I believe you try to do good most of the time, but your way of thinking - or what the rest of us believe to be your way of thinking - tends to get in your way at times. That is, to be blunt, you seem to have a bit of an attitude problem as far as the rest of the world is concerned, and this tends to make the rest of us less friendly towards you then we might otherwise have been.
In our eyes, you often seem to think the whole world should think the way you do and you seem to think that anyone who doesn't agree with you on an issue is either stupid or an evil enemy.
-And this from a nation claiming to be the global champion of democracy... 
Anyway, enough of that.
On the other hand, one of Norway's largest newspapers had an article yesterday about a 61 year old man in Falluja. As the shooting in his neighborhood subsided, he came out into the street, blood dripping from wounds he got during the bombing, embraced the first American soldier he met and said "I'm glad you finally got here. Those bastards were destroying our city."
He and his friend had been sitting in the basement praying as the bombs rained down on the city. They knew there would be a lot of death and destruction. And still his reaction was to embrace the soldiers and say "I'm glad you finally got here. Those bastards were destroying our city."
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:18
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"Our soldiers have faced boobie traps and insurgents that pretend to be wounded to lure our troops near and then blow themselves up. How was our soldier suppose to know if these people were helpless civilians or insurgents in disguise ready to blow them up?"
Well, if he was lying there wounded, with no apparent detonators in his hand, his ass is finished.
I don't understand why there are people out to defend summary execution. Enemy territory or not, it's still a crime. Just for the record, you are nto supposed to kill insurgents either who are wounded and unarmed and pose no threat. The argument "you weren't there, you couldn't know how threatning it was" is moot point. Too bad, it turns out he wasn't dangerous in that situation. It's like saying it's ok for cops to shoot someone if someone pulls out car keys, when not ordered to not to do that.
If we think this is a criteria of what is a crime and what is not, then there is no crime in the field of war. If we leave it up to the individual do decide how threatning it is, and in case you have unarmed and wounded dude, well too bad, he must of miscalculated the situation. Makes absolutely no difference.
But if he was shot the day before, the one who ordered him to go on a mission again should be interviewed also. Looking for justification to this is defending a killer. He might have been jumpy and in some kind of mode after been shot, but really, it's no excuse, it's just an explanation why he was jumpy.
This all of course assuming the story was so that they walked in calmly and shot one dude.
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:18
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Apparently, it wasn't one guy that was shot, it was four:
quote:
By STEVEN R. HURST, Associated Press Writer
NEW YORK - A U.S. Marine shot and killed a wounded and apparently unarmed Iraqi prisoner in a mosque in the former insurgent stronghold of Fallujah, according to dramatic pool television pictures broadcast Monday. A Marine spokesman in Washington said the shooting was under investigation.
The shooting Saturday was videotaped by pool correspondent Kevin Sites of NBC television, who said three other previously wounded prisoners in the mosque apparently also had been shot again by the Marines inside the mosque.
The incident played out as the Marines 3rd Battalion, 1st Regiment, returned to the unidentified Fallujah mosque Saturday. Sites was embedded with the unit.
Sites reported that a different Marine unit had come under fire from the mosque on Friday. Those Marines stormed the building, killing ten men and wounding five others, Sites said. The Marines said the fighters in the mosque had been armed with rocket-propelled grenades and AK-47 rifles.
The Marines had treated the wounded, he reported, left them behind and continued on Friday with their drive to retake the city from insurgents who have been battling U.S.-led occupation forces in Iraq (news - web sites) with increasing ferocity and violence in recent months.
On the video as the camera moved into the mosque during the Saturday incident, a Marine can be heard shouting obscenities in the background, yelling that one of the men was only pretending to be dead.
The video then showed a Marine raising his rifle toward a prisoner laying on the floor of the mosque but neither NBC nor CNN showed the bullet hitting the man. At that moment the video was blacked out but the report of the rifle could be heard.
The blacked out portion of the video tape, provided later to Associated Press Television News and other members of the network pool, showed the bullet striking the man in the upper body, possibly the head. His blood splatters on the wall behind him and his body goes limp.
Sites reported a Marine in the same unit had been killed just a day earlier when he tended to the booby-trapped dead body of an insurgent.
The events on the videotape began as some of the Marines from the unit accompanied by Sites approached the mosque on Saturday, a day after it was stormed by other Marines.
Gunfire can be heard from inside the mosque, and at its entrance, Marines who were already in the building emerge. They are asked by an approaching Marine lieutenant if there were insurgents inside and if the Marines had shot any of them. A Marine can be heard responding affirmatively. The lieutenant then asks if they were armed and fellow Marine shrugs.
Sites' account said the wounded men, who he said were prisoners and who were hurt in the previous day's attack, had been shot again by the Marines on the Saturday visit.
The videotape showed two of the wounded men propped against the wall and Sites said they were bleeding to death. According his report, a third wounded man appeared already dead, while a fourth was severely wounded but breathing. The fifth was covered by a blanket but did not appear to have been shot again after the Marines returned. It was the fourth man who was shown being shot.
A spokesman at Marine Corps headquarters in the Pentagon (news - web sites), Maj. Doug Powell, said the incident was "being investigated." He had no further details, other than to confirm the incident happened on Saturday and that the Marines involved were part of the 1st Marine Division. |
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16-11-2004 15:46
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