17-11-2004 07:10									#31
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Inspired by this thread - and the constant rants by various people who, frankly, know a lot more about computers than me - I am (as of a few hours ago) now using Firefox.

I can't really tell much of a difference (except for the tabs...but why not just open a number of IE windows) - what is the difference for someone who doesnt really do anything advanced with their browser - just looks at web pages?

	17-11-2004 07:57									#32
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The main thing is it's far more secure.

	17-11-2004 09:39									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I still use IE. Works well for me.

IE is scary as far as security is concerned!

You should switch to Firefox ASAP.

	17-11-2004 09:42									#34
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I've disabled most of the scripts.

	17-11-2004 09:59									#35
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quote: (except for the tabs...but why not just open a number of IE windows)

The good thing about tabs is they don't clutter up your taskbar. Like you go to a site like Apoyton Off topic, hit every eye catching topic with the middle mouse button so each loads in a new tab, then read through each one at leisure. It's simply a whole organized than having to use a whole new window for each thing you want to load in the background.

I have met a few people vehemently opossed to tabs and they claim that the way WinXP (and some *nix windows managers) stacks windows in the taskbar is just as good - but it isn't. You can't change between websites anywhere nearly as quickly. I think in reality they are just scared of non-M$.

	17-11-2004 10:13									#36
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one thing I don't understand.

all browsers are free. Who cares who uses what?

Why does microsoft care if people use Internet Explorer? They offer it for free.

	17-11-2004 10:15									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Zulu Elephant Inspired by this thread - and the constant rants by various people who, frankly, know a lot more about computers than me - I am (as of a few hours ago) now using Firefox. I can't really tell much of a difference (except for the tabs...but why not just open a number of IE windows) - what is the difference for someone who doesnt really do anything advanced with their browser - just looks at web pages?

there isn't much of a difference, that's why I like it. The differences are behind the scenes (security). I still don't like the text box cursor, but oh well. And I have to click outside the text box to scroll the page down. But I've adapted.

I really don't care for tabbed browsing. I find it annoying actually. But not annoying enough for me to ditch Firefox and go back to Internet Explorer.

	17-11-2004 10:17									#38
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The text box cursor is fixed, and will be part of Firefox 1.1

	17-11-2004 10:26									#39
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quote: And I have to click outside the text box to scroll the page down

Yeah I noticed that. Gradually getting used to it

	17-11-2004 11:08									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Alex This is all cool and interesting, but the fact is that Microsoft doesn't give a **** to those who are jumping out of its boat. There are simply lots and lots of people still using IE. And this won't change. (Boy, I'm pessimistic today, ain't I?)

here are our numbers for the month of november

	MS Internet Explorer   65.7 %

	Mozilla                24.6 %

	Opera                   3.2 %

	Netscape                2.1 %

	Unknown                 1.6 %

	Safari                  1.4 %

	Lynx                    0.7 %

	Konqueror               0.1 %

	17-11-2004 11:12									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Zulu Elephant I can't really tell much of a difference (except for the tabs...but why not just open a number of IE windows) - what is the difference for someone who doesnt really do anything advanced with their browser - just looks at web pages?

these are features i use all the time

- quick google search without loading up google.com
- quick find in a page
- (finally!!) accurate printing (with preview), no matter the width of the page

	17-11-2004 11:18									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Combat Ingrid Are there any issues like certain sites (internet banks for example) won't work properly with it? Otherwise I guess I should go ahead and try it.

The only thing IE good for is Windows Update now.

If your bank's website doesn't work with other browsers, such as Firefox, complain. Otherwise they have no incentive to fix it.

	17-11-2004 11:36									#43
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG - quick find in a page

hey hadnt noticed that one

	17-11-2004 20:39									#45
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There are people browsing with Lynx??!?

	17-11-2004 21:01									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Blake I have met a few people vehemently opossed to tabs and they claim that the way WinXP (and some *nix windows managers) stacks windows in the taskbar is just as good - but it isn't. You can't change between websites anywhere nearly as quickly. I think in reality they are just scared of non-M$.

I use firefox and I HATE tabs. It's much easier to hit things in the taskbar because it's a bigger thing to hit, so you don't have to be as precise.

	17-11-2004 21:47									#47
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i prefer opera's implementation of tabs over firefox's default implementation. ctrl-tab switches, you can move them, detach them, drag them between windows...among other things.

	17-11-2004 21:47									#48
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The tabs are growing on me.

And I think the Mozilla tabs are bigger than than a tab on the taskbar

	17-11-2004 21:51									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed i prefer opera's implementation of tabs over firefox's default implementation. ctrl-tab switches, you can move them, detach them, drag them between windows...among other things.

Ctrl-Tab switches in Firefox, and all of the stuff you mentioned is implemented with TBE (TabBrowser Extension).

	17-11-2004 21:52									#50
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i still don't understand the benefit of adding in an extension to do simple tab manipulation.

i understand modularity, i like it... but the things i mentioned about tabs seem so basic that it's a shame they're not in the default package.

same thing with session saving. i don't see why it has to be an extension, rather than being built in... ( 'course, i've been spoiled by opera, and to a lesser extent, kde saving sessions ( kde is worse than fluxbox... )--and even windows resuming open explorer windows ).

i understand why mouse gestures aren't part of the default package... but that doesn't mean i have to like it.

	17-11-2004 21:53									#51
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Asher, that picture IS cuuuuute.

quote: I use firefox and I HATE tabs. It's much easier to hit things in the taskbar because it's a bigger thing to hit, so you don't have to be as precise.

It does take some getting used too, I admit.

	17-11-2004 22:49									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed i still don't understand the benefit of adding in an extension to do simple tab manipulation. i understand modularity, i like it... but the things i mentioned about tabs seem so basic that it's a shame they're not in the default package.

Because they add needless overhead that most people don't want or use, and the people who do want it tend to be "power users" which can easily install extensions.

Personally I don't see the point, I like having it all in one window and never reorder tabs...

quote: same thing with session saving. i don't see why it has to be an extension, rather than being built in... ( 'course, i've been spoiled by opera, and to a lesser extent, kde saving sessions ( kde is worse than fluxbox... )--and even windows resuming open explorer windows ).

It could be built in with an option, but I'd hope it'd be disabled by default. That's one thing I never liked about Opera.

If I wanted my session to persist, I leave the window open.

	17-11-2004 22:57									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph There are people browsing with Lynx??!?

Hey, it's the only one working on my C-64...





But don't forget Thunderbird!

	17-11-2004 23:26									#54
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quote: Because they add needless overhead that most people don't want or use, and the people who do want it tend to be "power users" which can easily install extensions. Personally I don't see the point, I like having it all in one window and never reorder tabs...

it's basic tab management. how much overhead could it be?

and i do like reordering tabs: during the process of browsing many threads and comics, and i come across a few interesting articles, i want to move them to the end so i can continue to just click along down the line to read threads rather than having to jump around.

Or, say, i want to do a spot of development: push one tab that's already open into another window, so i can have two concurrent windows while keeping the same tab history for each.

	17-11-2004 23:26									#55
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i'm not saying firefox is a bad browser. i'm saying that opera's implementation of tabbing is better.

	17-11-2004 23:29									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed it's basic tab management. how much overhead could it be?

A noticable one. Install TBE and compare performance, it is a bit slower. That's the main reason it's not being merged into the default install.

quote: Or, say, i want to do a spot of development: push one tab that's already open into another window, so i can have two concurrent windows while keeping the same tab history for each.

Sounds nice, but a very rare requirement. One that would be best served with an extension like TBE, which a developer would surely know how to install.

	17-11-2004 23:31									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed i'm not saying firefox is a bad browser. i'm saying that opera's implementation of tabbing is better.

And I disagree. Opera is a browser with a ton of features, which I never use. It felt like a monolithic monster, even though it was fairly responsive.

A minority people require the Opera-like tab management, and those same people are likely to know how to install the extension to get the Opera-like tab management. I don't see this as a failing, but as a strength of Firefox...keep the useless stuff to most people out of the product by default.

Firefox is the antithesis of Opera, which stupid puts everything and the kitchen sink into a single product.

	17-11-2004 23:34									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed i still don't understand the benefit of adding in an extension to do simple tab manipulation. i understand modularity, i like it... but the things i mentioned about tabs seem so basic that it's a shame they're not in the default package. same thing with session saving. i don't see why it has to be an extension, rather than being built in...

OPERA RULEZ!

	17-11-2004 23:35									#59
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There's a reason Opera's been around for ages and still a small marketshare.

	17-11-2004 23:45									#60
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quote: A noticable one. Install TBE and compare performance, it is a bit slower. That's the main reason it's not being merged into the default install.

and that could just be sloppy coding, not the concept itself.

quote: Sounds nice, but a very rare requirement. One that would be best served with an extension like TBE, which a developer would surely know how to install.

just because i have to install it doesn't mean i want to install it. if i want the feature--a feature which is, when you get right down to it, quite basic and simple--and it doesn't add any real noticeable overhead (and it doesn't in opera), why not incorporate it by default? i understand that such comments lead down the dark path towards bloatware; however, simple, basic tab management isn't "bloat" so to speak.

you're asking me to be satisfied with xp home and tweakui when i could very well be using xp pro and tweakui.

quote: And I disagree. Opera is a browser with a ton of features, which I never use. It felt like a monolithic monster, even though it was fairly responsive.

it's quite responsive. i'll agree on the annoyance of say, the dumb mail client...

quote: A minority people require the Opera-like tab management, and those same people are likely to know how to install the extension to get the Opera-like tab management.

...but i disagree about the tab management.

quote: I don't see this as a failing, but as a strength of Firefox...keep the useless stuff to most people out of the product by default.

the active bookmarks/automatic RSS feeds are pretty useless to me. i'll wager that most people don't know about them, or how to use them, and won't be using them at all.
and they're about as useful as basic tab management. strange, that.

quote: Firefox is the antithesis of Opera, which stupid puts everything and the kitchen sink into a single product.

i like how session saving isn't even an extension you can find on mozdev--you have to google for it, and if you didn't know what it was called, you'd be SOL.
asher, i'm not talking whether or not opera is superior to firefox overall. i'm stating that there are two features that are relatively basic and wouldn't add too much to the code or overhead, and that opera's implementation of it and firefox's lack of it is still an issue.

mouse gestures, i'll grant--that's an acquired taste. but session saving to deal with random crashes, power outages, or hell, even reboots, and simple tab manipulation... i don't see why they aren'i included.