19-11-2004 19:11									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Ljube-ljcvetko Security is unimportant for a regular user. Even an advanced user like you shouldn't care much about security of his internet browser.

This is nonsense -- the major reason why viruses, spyware, and adware are so prevalent on Windows is inadequate IE security.

Security is important for everyone. It's not just about protecting your data, it's about keeping all the crap off your computer.

	19-11-2004 19:21									#122
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I wouldn't go that far as calling your last sentence nonsense

When I was your age I used to be enthusiastic like you. Years of experience have taught me however that there is no such thing as perfect software and all programmes have faults.

It all comes down to this: You can either fool yourself a more secure product will protect you, or you can face the fact it is not true and adopt a behaviour which reduces risks of virus infections instead.

I chose the latter and have since only suffered from blaster worm, an infection I cleaned without any trouble.

	19-11-2004 19:25									#123
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Of course you won't be invulnerable with Firefox, and it's certainly not perfect.

But it increases your chances of not getting any trouble.

I've never had a virus or a worm, and I've been using computers for as long as I can remember and first hit the internet before the world wide web even existed.

I appreciate your hilarious insight as an "IT Analyst" to keep Internet Explorer, but it's rather worthless advice.

There will be security holes in Firefox, but there are far more in Internet Explorer. The best advice is to use common sense and safe practices with Firefox.

	19-11-2004 19:58									#124
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There is also one strong argument in my favour and that is convenience. You want to replace a readily available free IE with an equally free Firefox. Why? What are the benefits? Better security? Perhaps, but does it really matter?

If I want security, I'll use firewall and anti virus and anti spyware too.

Supporters of Firefox have failed to convince a vast majority of people there is a significant advantage in Firefox compared to IE that would justify the cost of change. And my job is to estimate this cost and advise for or against the change.


And the reason I had blaster is cause I didn't want to even turn on the firewall that comes with windows XP.

	19-11-2004 20:13									#125
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The cost of switching to Firefox is nothing.

It's a tiny download, it's freely available, it requires less time ****ing around with it to set up to be secure. It imports your IE bookmarks, it imports your IE history, it even imports your IE auto-complete history, too...

The fact that you didn't even want to turn on the XP Firewall alone shows just how little you know or understand about computer security.

You claim to be an IT analyst...you must work for the government, don't you?

	19-11-2004 20:26									#126
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Let's not start calling names


I didn't turn on that firewall cause I use dial-up at home.

I work for a French company called Thales and my current project concerns the government: It's computerisation of courts in Serbia.

Even a tiny download is huge work to repeat on many computers. There is also training for the new product and adaptation of users. Still, the issue is not if it's all that difficult to change to Firefox. The issue is whether it's justifiable.

Since I believe it is not, it will eventually come down to personal preference. I will always advise against the change, some of my colleagues will advise for it.

My personal opinion is that it's always better to avoid any change if it's not absolutely necessary. You may think differently now, but in ten years time you'll think like I do. Trust me on this one

	19-11-2004 20:29									#127
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quote: [SIZE=1] Originally posted by Ljube-ljcvetko Even a tiny download is huge work to repeat on many computers.

It certainly isn't if your IT Advisor has properly advised you.

Do you not use disk imaging? Do you not use network installs? Firefox 1.0 has an MSI installer available that corporations can use to "push" out to clients and have it silently installed.

As long as the IT Advisors are not incompetent, it's trivial.

quote: My personal opinion is that it's always better to avoid any change if it's not absolutely necessary. You may think differently now, but in ten years time you'll think like I do. Trust me on this one

The change is negligable. Everyone I know that's switched hasn't had problems adapting, it's an easy to use program that just happens to be more secure by design, and by implementation.

	19-11-2004 20:37									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Ljube-ljcvetko When I was your age...

Maybe this is a case of "It's hard to teach old dogs new tricks"?

	19-11-2004 22:21									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I find it true for me, because I find it much easier to hit the taskbar right at the bottom than to aim for something near the top but not quite there. Plus, to close from the start bar it's just right-click -> move the mouse a tiny bit up and right -> left click to close a window, a motion I've ingrained into my brain. With tabs the close option is farther away from where you right-click. And I don't have to worry about accidentally closing a window with everything in it. Even if it does post a warning, I just am more comfortable with multiple windows than with tabs.

That's why I have all my tabs in Opera at the bottom of the window And I just close them by middle-clicking the tab; if I accidentally close a tab by mistake I just hit Ctrl-Z to undo closing it and pick up where I left off.



Opera

	19-11-2004 22:21									#130
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why would you download and install it multiple times?

vrtually every it advisory and house that i know of uses some sort of image deployment system, be it symantec ghost, radmind, or something else...

sure, installing more secure programs aren't going to help you if you keep doing stupid things like open unknown email attachments, but does it make it a good idea to go in without that extra level of protection?

quote: Security is unimportant for a regular user. Even an advanced user like you shouldn't care much about security of his internet browser.

this is like saying it's a good idea to go into a war zone without even the benefit of camoflage and a bullet-proof vest. will they save you? not necessarily. does it make it a good **** idea to not have them on? not really.

	19-11-2004 22:26									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed this is like saying it's a good idea to go into a war zone without even the benefit of camoflage and a bullet-proof vest. will they save you? not necessarily. does it make it a good **** idea to not have them on? not really.

It's not like that because your life is not at stake here.
I couldn't care less whether my personal computer is secure or not. I care very much whether I catch a bullet or not.

	19-11-2004 22:40									#132
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quote: It's not like that because your life is not at stake here. I couldn't care less whether my personal computer is secure or not. I care very much whether I catch a bullet or not.

you do realize a good many end users are quite attached to their data that is stored on their computers... losing say, a thesis, because your computer got infected with spyware and virii, would seriously crimp many people's style.

particularly since the majority of people also don't keep regular backups...

===

incidentally... you're it advisor in eastern europe?

i read somewhere that a good fraction of malware and such originates in eastern europe.

	20-11-2004 00:49									#133
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quote: Originally posted by ixnay That's why I have all my tabs in Opera at the bottom of the window And I just close them by middle-clicking the tab; if I accidentally close a tab by mistake I just hit Ctrl-Z to undo closing it and pick up where I left off.

I find middle-clicking unnatural, and to easy to do accidentally.

	20-11-2004 01:25									#134
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Kuci, the tab browser extension will allow you to place the tabs at the bottom of the window.

Tabs should really be on the side to save screen space.

	20-11-2004 01:36									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Tabs should really be on the side to save screen space.

Putting them on the side wastes a hell of a lot more space unless you cut them down to just the icons, which would be really stupid.

	20-11-2004 01:43									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Tabs should really be on the side to save screen space.

That makes no sense, and takes up way more space...

	20-11-2004 01:44									#137
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quote: Originally posted by ixnay Putting them on the side wastes a hell of a lot more space unless you cut them down to just the icons, which would be really stupid.

Err, that's how the OS X Dock works.

Of course it's stupid.

	20-11-2004 01:51									#138
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quote: Kuci, the tab browser extension will allow you to place the tabs at the bottom of the window. Tabs should really be on the side to save screen space.

Agathon, this is what I was talking about... you've been making phenomenally bizzare claims in this thread and in the Creative mp3 player thread which just... don't make any sense...

	20-11-2004 01:54									#139
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It makes perfect sense.

Screens are wider than they are tall; pages tend to be taller than they are wide.

We don't have page-shaped screens. Hence, putting the tabs on the side frees up more vertical space. What's weird about that?

	20-11-2004 01:56									#140
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but you're using up more space, period--especially horizontally. in an era when most pages are geared towards people with resolutions at or above 1024x768, it's better for them to just have to scroll in one direction--down--than it is for them to scroll in two directions, down and right, because the tabs are on the side.

	20-11-2004 01:59									#141
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I happen to like it like this.

If only Omniweb were free and a little faster.

Attachment: picture 1_.jpg
This has been downloaded 20 time(s).

	20-11-2004 02:01									#142
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quote: but you're using up more space, period--especially horizontally. in an era when most pages are geared towards people with resolutions at or above 1024x768, it's better for them to just have to scroll in one direction--down--than it is for them to scroll in two directions, down and right, because the tabs are on the side.

I guess it is different if you are used to windows taking up the whole screen. I'm not. I always have several things open at once.

Why would I have to scroll down and to the right?

	20-11-2004 02:06									#143
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quote: I guess it is different if you are used to windows taking up the whole screen. I'm not. I always have several things open at once.

as do i, on 1280x1024 resolution, so it's not like i'm wanting for space as much.

but i do design web pages, and i do know that a good deal of people still browse at 1024x768 and 800x600, and in those cases, it's horizontal real estate that is slightly more valuable.

quote: Why would I have to scroll down and to the right?

because when you have the tabs on the side, you reduce the amount of readable space you have for your pages. as in, everything gets pushed over. and if you don't have enough space to deal with that, and if the page uses fixed, rather than relative sizes, you'll have overflow. and that overflow can only be dealt with by adding in a horizontal scroll bar.

which, then, to read the whole page, you'd have to scroll both down AND right, rather than just down.

	20-11-2004 02:23									#144
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I guess it is just a difference in taste.

I operate at 1024x768 and I prefer Omniweb's way of handling tabs. I prefer to have my browser take up the whole vertical space of the screen, but I never have it take up the whole screen.

	20-11-2004 02:30									#145
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quote: I guess it is just a difference in taste.

compared to:

quote: Tabs should really be on the side to save screen space.

Agathon, that's not a matter of taste you first claimed. If it you wanted to initially say it was, you would have said that you preferred Omniweb's tab management and how it displays them on the side, not saying that tabs should really be on the side to save screen space.

It really isn't taste at all, about horizontal scrolling being less convenient than vertical scrolling. On windows computers, you have a vertical scroll wheel only, usually. on a mac, you don't have a scroll wheel at all. it's easier to click and hold just one scroll bar than it is to shift back and forth between the two. it's easier to just have to press space/page dn/page up rather than having to use the arrow keys to read.

	20-11-2004 02:42									#146
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quote: Agathon, that's not a matter of taste you first claimed. If it you wanted to initially say it was, you would have said that you preferred Omniweb's tab management and how it displays them on the side, not saying that tabs should really be on the side to save screen space.

What is a matter of taste is whether you want browser windows to take up the whole screen.

I think it is easier to preserve vertical screen space over horizontal screen space, because pages are taller than they are wide.

I don't understand at all what you mean about horizontal scrolling. I never do it and I don't have to. Can you explain why this is necessary?

	20-11-2004 02:45									#147
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quote: because when you have the tabs on the side, you reduce the amount of readable space you have for your pages. as in, everything gets pushed over. and if you don't have enough space to deal with that, and if the page uses fixed, rather than relative sizes, you'll have overflow. and that overflow can only be dealt with by adding in a horizontal scroll bar.

I see what you mean. But it doesn't happen. See my pic.

	20-11-2004 02:47									#148
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One excellent feature that Firefox has is that it can make sure that all images fit into your window, which eliminates the need for horizontal scrolling. (Huge images seem to be the only occasion where I need to scroll from side to side and that isn't very often at all).

	20-11-2004 03:07									#149
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quote: I see what you mean. But it doesn't happen. See my pic.

you do know that with computing, the term "your mileage will vary" is a truism, don't you?

just because it doesn't happen to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

i've seen it on multiple platforms across multiple browsers at multiple resolutions. it can happen, it does happen, and it will happen. and this is without sidebar tabs for different web pages, too. there are pages where it displays fine until you have a sidebar.

quote: One excellent feature that Firefox has is that it can make sure that all images fit into your window, which eliminates the need for horizontal scrolling. (Huge images seem to be the only occasion where I need to scroll from side to side and that isn't very often at all).

ie6 does this too. your point?

	20-11-2004 06:40									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I happen to like it like this. If only Omniweb were free and a little faster.

That's a textbook example of a horrible, horrible website.

Not only does it not obey the HTML specifying cell width, it has an enormous waste of screen realestate on the right with the graphical images of tabs.

Holy ****, people need a PICTURE to remember which tab is which?

That uses up TONS of space, uses up a lot more resources, and is totally useless.

Classic crap interface.