22-11-2004 11:54									#31
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quote: Are you saying that there were some inherent qualities, or rather lack therof, in the German people which meant they were especially vulnerable to fascism and anti-semitism?

Like the sonderweg? No.

The German people are not equivalent to the constitution. The constitution had specific weaknesses that Hitler was able to take advantage of to gain control.

quote: The main reason that the Nazis came to power was because they were ruthless when it came to the use of violence, and that they were backed by powerful interests, at home and abroad. They were actually quite disdainful of ordinary Germans.

Ruthless, yes, and opportunistic, yes, but you cannot neglect the fact that they were able to appeal to Versailles and the humilation of Germany in order to gain a measure of popular support within Germany.

	22-11-2004 11:55									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc The main reason that the Nazis came to power was because they were ruthless when it came to the use of violence, and that they were backed by powerful interests, at home and abroad. They were actually quite disdainful of ordinary Germans.

Do you think they gained support with the ordinary German when the economy started to improve?

	22-11-2004 12:03									#33
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quote: No it doesn't. The only thing stopping Tony Blair's Labor Party from proclaiming him dictator for life and outlawing all other parties is a respect for parliamentary democracy. The same is true in the U.S. and every other country in the world. Constitutions only work when people obey them. If you've ever read the Soviet consitution written under Stalin, you'd be amazed at what a wonderful documnent it was. If the government refuses to obey it, it's not worth a thing.

Did such a wonderful constitution permit the formation of independent political parties, free elections, that sort of thing?

I think there is a little more stopping the Labour party under Blair from declaring him dictator for life rather than just his own desires.

	22-11-2004 12:04									#34
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quote: Look at what Western Europe did in Africa. The big difference between the Nazis and other Western powers is they did what they did to white people. If they'd done it to others, no one'd care. Look at how Europe and the Americas focus on Japanese attrocities in Asia. We don't, and they were just as bad as the Nazis attrocities. No one pays attention to what Italy did in Africa.

Or what America did to their slaves?

	22-11-2004 12:07									#35
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BK,

The point is that the govt can break the law and get away with it if people do nothing about it. Our constitutions are no safeguard against that. We are the safeguard.

	22-11-2004 12:08									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Do you think they gained support with the ordinary German when the economy started to improve?

Passive support perhaps, as in "I better not protest or I will get shot or sent to a concentration camp."

	22-11-2004 12:09									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Or what America did to their slaves?

Our ancestors were far kinder to their slaves than were the slave holders of the Caribbean. The slaves bound for the sugar plantations of the Antilles were dead people even before they got off the ships. It's an unknown holocaust.

quote: Did such a wonderful constitution permit the formation of independent political parties, free elections, that sort of thing?

Yes.

quote: I think there is a little more stopping the Labour party under Blair from declaring him dictator for life rather than just his own desires.

Well, that would be the respect of the Labour Party for Parliementary democracy. Should they have it in their mind to proclaim Britain a one-party state, legally there's nothing anyone else could do about it.

	22-11-2004 12:11									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc Passive support perhaps, as in "I better not protest or I will get shot or sent to a concentration camp."

I think it might have been more than just passive. The Nazis saved the economy. Maybe I don't know because I'm not German though.

	22-11-2004 12:12									#39
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I think this thread should be retitled "America's Youth Targeting Fascists."

	22-11-2004 12:12									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious We are the safeguard.

Not really. The Italian people didn't exactly roll over and accept Mussolini wth open arms. The Italian government, on the other hand, did. The government is the safeguard, and when it choses to no longer be so, there isn't a lot the people can do about it. I don't know of a successful revolt against a serious attempt to impose a dictatorship.

	22-11-2004 12:19									#41
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quote: The Nazis saved the economy.

The economy was made good through deficit financing. Inflation was kept in check through abolishment of independant labour unions. So the basic conditions were never improved upon. I think that the ordinary German was unaware of that because of a lack of an independant press.

Prior to the war Nazi functionaries were able to cash in expropriation of Jews and dissidents. During the initial years of the War living conditions might have improved, because there was a systematic looting of occupied territories.

	22-11-2004 12:20									#42
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Not really. The Italian people didn't exactly roll over and accept Mussolini wth open arms. The Italian government, on the other hand, did. The government is the safeguard, and when it choses to no longer be so, there isn't a lot the people can do about it. I don't know of a successful revolt against a serious attempt to impose a dictatorship.

Well you either have control of the army or you don't. Armies don't usually split. Some soldiers may abandon their post though.

	22-11-2004 12:23									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc The economy was made good through deficit financing. Inflation was kept in check through abolishment of independant labour unions. So the basic conditions were never improved upon. I think that the ordinary German was unaware of that because of a lack of an independant press. Prior to the war Nazi functionaries were able to cash in expropriation of Jews and dissidents. During the initial years of the War living conditions might have improved, because there was a systematic looting of occupied territories.

What do you consider "basic conditions?" The economy jumped up and did flips. It's the most amazing period of economic expansion in history.

	22-11-2004 12:24									#44
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No, the Soviets were better during the same period.

	22-11-2004 12:27									#45
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quote: The point is that the govt can break the law and get away with it if people do nothing about it. Our constitutions are no safeguard against that. We are the safeguard.

True, but without a constitution, to what does one appeal to?

	22-11-2004 12:27									#46
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I disagree Che. The Germans had much faster growth.

	22-11-2004 12:30									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I disagree Che. The Germans had much faster growth.

You can disagree, but the USSR had something like 40% growth during the 1930s. Granted, when you start from close to zero, any increase will be exagerated. The Soviets were the only country unaffected by the Great Depression and with the possible exception of some East Asian tigers, had the most rapid economic growth in history during the 1930s.

	22-11-2004 12:31									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi True, but without a constitution, to what does one appeal to?

Great Britain has no constitution.

	22-11-2004 12:35									#49
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You can disagree, but the USSR had something like 40% growth during the 1930s. Granted, when you start from close to zero, any increase will be exagerated. The Soviets were the only country unaffected by the Great Depression and with the possible exception of some East Asian tigers, had the most rapid economic growth in history during the 1930s.

But it's not really exagerated. The German economy actually grew that much. Now if you measure the growth from WW1 to WW2 then the USSR did grow more during that period.

	22-11-2004 13:00									#50
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quote: Great Britain has no constitution.

No written one.

Strong arguments in favour of an unwritten one though.

	22-11-2004 15:26									#51
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Could someone please help me here? The lead post describe two groups of skinheads battling one another. One declares the other illegitimate. One is rascist, the other anti-rascist. But other than that, both seem to be violent thugs.

What is going on here? Are both groups fascist?

	22-11-2004 15:30									#52
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And, btw, Saddam's government was fascist. There is nothing about Saddam's government that is anything like the Republican Party which emphasizes individual liberty, free trade, democracy and human rights. I also think these skinhead share none of these values, so they are not right wing.

	22-11-2004 16:37									#53
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Well, that would be the respect of the Labour Party for Parliementary democracy. Should they have it in their mind to proclaim Britain a one-party state, legally there's nothing anyone else could do about it.

The House of Lords? The Queen, if we go that far?

	22-11-2004 18:43									#54
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quote: And, btw, Saddam's government was fascist. There is nothing about Saddam's government that is anything like the Republican Party which emphasizes individual liberty, free trade, democracy and human rights. I also think these skinhead share none of these values, so they are not right wing.

I'll agree with you that Saddam's government and the Republicans being similar is stretching the imagination a bit too much, but some points I'd like to quibble with:

1. Individual Liberty
Hello? John Ashcroft? The Patriot Act?

2. Free Trade
What about the steel tariff imposed in March 2002 - December 2003?

3. Democracy
I'll give you this one - for now.

4. Human rights
Guantanemo Bay. Abu Ghraib. A myriad of other abuses.

	22-11-2004 19:32									#55
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You can disagree, but the USSR had something like 40% growth during the 1930s. Granted, when you start from close to zero, any increase will be exagerated. The Soviets were the only country unaffected by the Great Depression and with the possible exception of some East Asian tigers, had the most rapid economic growth in history during the 1930s.

Actually GDP in the Soviet Union rose by 66% (an annual rise of 5.2%) between 1930 and 1940 - this compares with a 46% rise (3.8% annual rate) for Germany.

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious But it's not really exagerated. The German economy actually grew that much. Now if you measure the growth from WW1 to WW2 then the USSR did grow more during that period.

Over the 25 year period 1913 to 1938 the USSR's GDP rose by 74% (a 2.2% annual rate of growth) whilst Germany's increased by 44% (1.5% at an annual rate).

Source: A. Maddison, "The World Economy, Historical Statistics"

	22-11-2004 19:55									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Ned One is rascist, the other anti-rascist. But other than that, both seem to be violent thugs.

You got that right. My friend, Mike the Skinhead, used to tell some great stories about pounding nazis and dude who hit women, but somewhere along the line he decided violence of any kind was wrong. While he's telling me this, his new skinbird, flips out and starts screaming at some hippies across the street, sort of illustrating his point that the whole skinhead movement, racist and anti-racist was screwed up.

quote: Are both groups fascist?

No. Skinheads have various range of ideologies, but they tend to lean left or are apolitical.

	22-11-2004 19:56									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Saras The House of Lords? The Queen, if we go that far?

The House of Commons could abolish each if they so wished . . . and they should.

	22-11-2004 20:48									#58
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quote: Originally posted by el freako Actually GDP in the Soviet Union rose by 66% (an annual rise of 5.2%) between 1930 and 1940 - this compares with a 46% rise (3.8% annual rate) for Germany.

The beginning of the period should be 1932. The economy was still on a downfall in 1930. In fact, that was one of the worst years.

	22-11-2004 21:47									#59
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The House of Commons could abolish each if they so wished

Are you sure?

	22-11-2004 21:48									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Saras Are you sure?

Yep.