23-11-2004 19:33									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc And I would say that a deficit is very important - especially because inflation set in before the war. When the Nazi territory expanded the Reichsmark became legal tender in the occupied territory, significantly reducing the effects of inflation - since the excess in money was made good by adding a larger area of circulation. It might then be said that the deficit was only important in that it meant war would be inevitable. If for instance Nazi Germany had become involved in a long war in France, it would have meant that the German economy would have crashed very soon.

But if there were effects of the deficit then you should count those effects. Why count the deficit?

	23-11-2004 19:36									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Saras So the Commons can vote itself, or the PM, as dictator for life, and the Lords and the monarch would not have a legal instrument to do anything about it?..

with the state of the opposition at the moment, tony blair might as well be declared dictator for life

it's not quite as simple as that. when the commons passes a bill it goes to the house of lords, the lords have to pass it and then it receives royal assent. if a bill goes to the lords three times in two years and they reject it then the commons may pass it using something called the parliament act, and force it through. this act was brought in the early 20th century to allow the democractic house of commons to triumph over the lords if the two could not agree, it is not used often at all. it will be in the news soon because it's about to be shamefully abused to ban fox hunting in this country.

the queen could in theory refuse to give royal assent, but this has not happend since 1707 and won't happen again.

	23-11-2004 20:04									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious But in a fascist system the state is only important, not the individuals. So the goal of the economy should be to benefit the state only.

That's the rhetoric of fascism, not the reality. In reality, the purpose of fascism is to restore profitability to the ailing, but most powerful, sectors of the ruling class. These growth rates show massive profitability, but with labor unions crushed and working conditions worsed, and wages surpressed, average Germans weren't benefitting so well, except in that they had a job at all, rather than starving in the Great Depression.

	23-11-2004 20:12									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker

Hey, don't laugh, buddy-boy. In a command economy, you should never have periods of declining growth, since resources shouldn't have been over allocated in unproductive sectors in the first place. It's inevitable in capitalism with its anarchic means of deciding investment, but it shouldn't have happened in the USSR.

edit: Wouldn't have noticed it weren't for Saras. Thanks.

	23-11-2004 20:39									#125
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Hey, don't laugh, buddy-boy. In a command economy, you should never have periods of declining growth, since resources should have been over allocated in unproductive sectors in the first place. It's inevitable in capitalism with its anarchic means of deciding investment, but it shouldn't have happened in the USSR.

quoted to prevent DanS'ing

	23-11-2004 22:32									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Saras So the Commons can vote itself, or the PM, as dictator for life, and the Lords and the monarch would not have a legal instrument to do anything about it?..

Not without successfully repealing the existing laws on the subject.

Anyway- we're British. We're kind of resistant to totalitarianism. Ultimately, laws or constitutions tend to amount to very little when the chips are down.

	23-11-2004 23:02									#127
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That's the rhetoric of fascism, not the reality. In reality, the purpose of fascism is to restore profitability to the ailing, but most powerful, sectors of the ruling class. These growth rates show massive profitability, but with labor unions crushed and working conditions worsed, and wages surpressed, average Germans weren't benefitting so well, except in that they had a job at all, rather than starving in the Great Depression.

First, kick ass Bad Santa avatar. I love that movie.



In reality fascism has been very profitable for capitalists, however fascist states don't last long so how do we know that the fascists don't just use the capitalists out of necessity, and then kill them off just like the rest of their so called enemies?

	24-11-2004 01:54									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Why count the deficit?

Because fiscal policy is one of the primary means of the state to stimulate the economy.

If deficits are not important, why is the EU up in arms about anyone using deficits to stimulate the economy.
I would guess it is because of some very bad experiences with Keynesian economics, the subject of this thread for instance being one of them.

	24-11-2004 01:58									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious In reality fascism has been very profitable for capitalists, however fascist states don't last long so how do we know that the fascists don't just use the capitalists out of necessity, and then kill them off just like the rest of their so called enemies?

Spain. During the first fifteen years, Franco's government could be considered a fascist government. With the crushing of the working class and the peasants though, they were able to back off and become a more normal military dictatorship.

Fascist Italy lasted more than twenty years, and showed no sign of abolishing the capitalists.

	24-11-2004 02:38									#130
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That's the rhetoric of fascism, not the reality. In reality, the purpose of fascism is to restore profitability to the ailing, but most powerful, sectors of the ruling class. These growth rates show massive profitability, but with labor unions crushed and working conditions worsed, and wages surpressed, average Germans weren't benefitting so well, except in that they had a job at all, rather than starving in the Great Depression.

Che, could you provide some evidence that wages were suppressed and working conditions worsened under Hitler. Certainly Hitler did suppress the labor unions who were dominated by Communists. This ended strikes that had been hurting the German economy. But the absence of labor unions and the absence of strikes does not necessarily imply that wages were suppressed and working conditions worsened, particularly when one considers that Hitler brought Germany universal health care, autobahns, the Volkswagen, cheap people's resorts and economic prosperity.

	24-11-2004 06:20									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc Because fiscal policy is one of the primary means of the state to stimulate the economy. If deficits are not important, why is the EU up in arms about anyone using deficits to stimulate the economy. I would guess it is because of some very bad experiences with Keynesian economics, the subject of this thread for instance being one of them.

The EU isn't saying that the deficit should be subtracted from the member nations GDP. That's silly. What kind of measurement is that?

	24-11-2004 06:28									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Che, could you provide some evidence that wages were suppressed and working conditions worsened under Hitler. Certainly Hitler did suppress the labor unions who were dominated by Communists. This ended strikes that had been hurting the German economy. But the absence of labor unions and the absence of strikes does not necessarily imply that wages were suppressed and working conditions worsened, particularly when one considers that Hitler brought Germany universal health care, autobahns, the Volkswagen, cheap people's resorts and economic prosperity.

quote: On 2nd May, 1933, Adolf Hitler ordered the Sturm Abteilung (SA) to arrest Germany's trade union leaders. He then gave Robert Ley the task of forming the Labour Front (DAF), the only union organization allowed in the Third Reich. A pay freeze was introduced in 1933 and this was rigorously enforced by the Labour Front. Wages were now decided by the Labour Front and compulsory deductions made for income tax, and for its Strength through Joy programme. The Labour Front also issued work-books that recorded the worker's employment record and no one could be employed without one.

-Labor Front

	24-11-2004 07:54									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Ned PAX, I once had a good time talking with you here. It is too bad you have junked your sense of civility. You are now on my ignore list.

I was just joking Ned. I really like you even though I disagree with your opinions. Anyway, please accept my real apology.

	24-11-2004 12:10									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Not without successfully repealing the existing laws on the subject. Anyway- we're British. We're kind of resistant to totalitarianism. Ultimately, laws or constitutions tend to amount to very little when the chips are down.

That's what I thought. Would be cool if every country had that sort of 400+ years experience and tradition in running a representative government.

	24-11-2004 18:22									#135
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Hey, don't laugh, buddy-boy. In a command economy, you should never have periods of declining growth, since resources shouldn't have been over allocated in unproductive sectors in the first place. It's inevitable in capitalism with its anarchic means of deciding investment, but it shouldn't have happened in the USSR.

It's two things - your surprise at it, and the fact that, from a certain viewpoint, the entire thing was one big recession

	24-11-2004 19:04									#136
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara edit: Wouldn't have noticed it weren't for Saras. Thanks.

Anytime man

	25-11-2004 03:38									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious -Labor Front

Kid. So? What does that prove? That was 1933. What happened to wages in subsequent years? Also you seem to ignore universal health care, autobahns, cheap resorts, and economic prosperity. Hitler did a lot for the common German it seems. The only people who had it bad were Communists (and, of course, Jews). I have a hard time believing that the average worker did not like the Nazi's after a time.

(But, yes, I do understand the harshness of the Nazi's in forcing the workers to pay their income taxes through withholding. That was the singlemost vile deed ever done by any government, at any time and at any place in the whole history of tryanny.)

	25-11-2004 09:01									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Kid. So? What does that prove? That was 1933. What happened to wages in subsequent years? Also you seem to ignore universal health care, autobahns, cheap resorts, and economic prosperity.

All of those things benefited the state though. For example, when your employees have health care they stay healthy and work better. He exploited the workers though. How can you justify setting their wages fixed when the capitalists are making profit? They only justification was that it was for the good of the German race. Unless you believe in that crap you can't say that he didn't oppress them.

quote: Hitler did a lot for the common German it seems. The only people who had it bad were Communists (and, of course, Jews).

I see. It's ok because only the commies and Jews had it bad?

quote: I have a hard time believing that the average worker did not like the Nazi's after a time.

Yeah, probably because they were glad to have a means to survival, and some of them kind of hated the commies and Jews anyway.

	25-11-2004 16:43									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious All of those things benefited the state though. For example, when your employees have health care they stay healthy and work better. He exploited the workers though. How can you justify setting their wages fixed when the capitalists are making profit? They only justification was that it was for the good of the German race. Unless you believe in that crap you can't say that he didn't oppress them.

Kid, the Nazi's took control of industry as well. They regulated profits as well as wages. Their control of industry was as complete as it can be without ending private ownership altogether.

But that said, what happened to wages after 1933? I suggest that they went up in real terms because the Nazi economy took off.

	25-11-2004 21:00									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Kid, the Nazi's took control of industry as well. They regulated profits as well as wages. Their control of industry was as complete as it can be without ending private ownership altogether.

BS. The capitalists controled the Nazis. The Nazis didn't do squat without running it past their industrial backers first. I suggest you watch Schindler's List and pay special attention to how the commander of a Nazi death camp fawned at Schindler, a factory owner and war profiteer. The fact that he was a capitalist is what allowed him to save those people, because no matter how bad things got, the Nazis held private property inviolate (with the exception of the private property of Jews and conquered nations). Then knew the smell of their masters hand.

Even Ford's company in Germany made a profit, at a time when Germany and the U.S. were at war! Obviously, Ford couldn't run the plant, and the Nazis had to set up a trustee to run it during the war, but rather than nationalizing the plant of an enemy nation, they not only left it owned by Ford, but even ran it profitably and put the profits in a special escrow for Ford.

	25-11-2004 21:40									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Ned But that said, what happened to wages after 1933? I suggest that they went up in real terms because the Nazi economy took off.

No. In real terms wages went down. They remained frozed, but inflation started to reduce them in real terms.

	25-11-2004 22:06									#142
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Hitler's economic policies worked well for everyone (except the commies, Jews, trade unionists etc) until about 1936. That's when the economy started experiencing shortages and inflation, but Hitler kept wages frozen. That's when he started worrying about social upheaval and planning war.

	26-11-2004 04:29									#143
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara BS. The capitalists controled the Nazis. The Nazis didn't do squat without running it past their industrial backers first. I suggest you watch Schindler's List and pay special attention to how the commander of a Nazi death camp fawned at Schindler, a factory owner and war profiteer. The fact that he was a capitalist is what allowed him to save those people, because no matter how bad things got, the Nazis held private property inviolate (with the exception of the private property of Jews and conquered nations). Then knew the smell of their masters hand. Even Ford's company in Germany made a profit, at a time when Germany and the U.S. were at war! Obviously, Ford couldn't run the plant, and the Nazis had to set up a trustee to run it during the war, but rather than nationalizing the plant of an enemy nation, they not only left it owned by Ford, but even ran it profitably and put the profits in a special escrow for Ford.

Marxist propaganda. The Nazi's controlled everything. While they may have done deals with the industrialists and the Catholics and in 1933 in order to gain their support for Hitler becoming chancellor, they soon broke their promises began to dominate. Here's a passage from book written prior to the introduction Marxist revisionism into Western textbooks:

"The tenets of fascism in a realm of economic affairs furnish an interesting example of contrast between theory and practice. The statement of the fascist leaders, both written and oral, have repeatedly preached respect for private property rights and private initiative and ownership in business. It is that it was this aspect of fascist doctrine which appeal to German and Italian industrialists and financiers and led them to come contribute their support to the movement in its early stages. Yet, in both Italy and Germany today the state has come to exercise far-reaching control over economic activities. Although lip service is still paid to the principles of private ownership and private initiative, nevertheless they are held to be subordinated to the exigencies of national interest. Both labor and capital have been brought under the regimentation of the state. Private property rights have been extensively curtailed, especially in Germany, through such measures as governmental fixing of prices, wages, interest and profits, control over raw materials and types of production, regulation of exchange and foreign commerce, et cetera. In Italy, also, the government has assumed a decisive role in guiding and controlling the economic life of the nation. Capital and labor are organized in syndicates, dominated by the Italian government. In both countries trade unions have been abolished and strikes declared illegal. The extension of government controlled over German business was described as early as 1934 in the following statement by an English observer:

quote: Most businessmen find it advisable to keep on the right side of the local party authorities. By no stretch of the imagination can their property be called their own. The State suggests war limits extension of plant or new construction; it fixes most prices as well as wages, endeavoring to prevent price increases; it compels companies increasing evidence to invest an equal amount in government securities; it organizes compulsory cartels; it dictates the use of domestic instead of foreign raw materials.... No directors of important, or even unimportant, private concerns are appointed without the tacit assent of the State and the Nazi party.

One of the most prominent theories of communism, the class struggle and the inherent hostility between the proletariat and the capitalist, is repudiated in fascist philosophy. With its emphasis upon national unity and the supremacy of the state fascism has no place for the class struggle, the latter would threaten the authority of the state and disrupt national unity. As capital and labor are not to oppose each other for their own selfish ends, rather both are to be subordinated to a higher entity, the state in the nation. In place of the class struggle the Fascists have tended to substitute the concept of evolution through struggle between nations or between racial groups."

Mosher, William E., "An Introduction to Responsible Citizenship," Henry Holt & Co., New York 1941, at page 813.

	26-11-2004 05:44									#144
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Hitler's talent was political. He did what he could to make an alliance with the capitalists, and he was successfull. The capitalists were gratefull for the Nazi controls on the economy because they profited from it. There was no option for them to profit in the failed free market.

	26-11-2004 06:27									#145
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No doubt, Kid, that Hitler used the industrialists and they used him -- initially. But, fascism does not admit of control by the industrialists. The party controls the State and State controls everything.

The fact that industry still made profits is beside the point, unless one is into class warfare for its own sake. Fascism is not free enterprise as the State ultimately dictates what business can do and how much profit it can make.

In a way, Nixon was a fascist as he declared wage and price controls by edict. If you have followed my posts, you know what I think of wage/price controls and how much I despised Nixon for imposing them.

It would be beneficial to a discussion of fascism to actually discuss it as it was, not some propagandistic version of what it was. It was (and is) a totalitarian philosophy where the party ruled all. There is very little difference between fascism and communism on this point. Where it departs from communism is on the issue of class warfare.

	26-11-2004 07:36									#146
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quote: Even Ford's company in Germany made a profit, at a time when Germany and the U.S. were at war! Obviously, Ford couldn't run the plant, and the Nazis had to set up a trustee to run it during the war, but rather than nationalizing the plant of an enemy nation, they not only left it owned by Ford, but even ran it profitably and put the profits in a special escrow for Ford.

That wouldn't have anything to do with Ford's anti-semitist beliefs would it?

And, re: Labour one-party state, it is possible as Laz said, mainly because of pro-Parliament legislation and ideals introduced post-Civil War.

	26-11-2004 08:25									#147
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Constitutionally, is it still in the Monarch's purview to Disband Parliament?

	26-11-2004 09:29									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Ned It would be beneficial to a discussion of fascism to actually discuss it as it was, not some propagandistic version of what it was. It was (and is) a totalitarian philosophy where the party ruled all. There is very little difference between fascism and communism on this point. Where it departs from communism is on the issue of class warfare.

We are discussing it as it was. True, that the proclaimed goal of fascism was national unity, but in reality they did nothing to end class warfare. It doesn't matter how many communists they killed or how much control over the capitalists that they had, fascism can never end class warfare.

	26-11-2004 11:22									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Marxist propaganda.

Historical fact. It's just that reality tends to support our propaganda.

	26-11-2004 11:27									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Ned It would be beneficial to a discussion of fascism to actually discuss it as it was, not some propagandistic version of what it was.

That's what I'm doing. It just doesn't fit into your mindset, so it must obviously be false. I recomend to you, Fascism and Big Business, by Daniel Guerin. Read the facts, not the propaganda that agrees with you.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=glance&s=books

quote: A comprehensive study of fascism as it evolved in Italy and Germany in the 1920s and 1930s. Daniel Guerin's classic work, first published in French in 1936, shows how fascism, far from being an aberration of mass psychology, arose from the specific conditions of a social system in crisis. At first covertly, then increasingly openly, layers of big business financed and promoted the fascist movements in Italy and Germany. Guerin contrasts the fascists' initially radical anticapitalist demagogy with their moves to shore up the capitalist profit system once they form the government.