23-11-2004 00:18									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo quote: The kind of democracy that brings the vote to 45 million people in the ME. You mean the kind of democracy that isn't elected? quote: In fact, they would have gone out of their way to appease bin Laden, Mullah Omar and Saddam Hussein. Like Reagan?

Ramo, I guess you join with the Gore crowd and would have appeased Omar and Saddam instead of taking action. You are decidedly glum about bring liberty to a people oppressed.

	23-11-2004 00:21									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Thucydides what the hell does Abu Graib have anything to do with sex, deviant or otherwise? The scandal of Abu Graib was all about control and what better way to control a muslim prison population then through religious guilt. Especially when Arabs are more sensitive to the subject and more easily shamed then Americans are.It appears the abuse was used in an attempt to gather intelligence through blackmail, but regardless the methodology is purely republican religious right. After all, who but religious wingnuts try to control people through guilt about sex?

While intelligence was the cause of some of what happened, all the extreme abuse we saw in the pictures occurred in the middle of the night -- out of sight of supervision. They knew what they were doing was wrong.

As to the sex part, most of that was not published.

	23-11-2004 00:22									#93
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In fact, I would've given them oral sex.

And, Omar's a great guy.

	23-11-2004 00:23									#94
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Dude, that was too over the top. If you pulled it back a tad, it would have been a much better troll.

Che, I do my best. At least Kid got a laugh. I would have hope to have you rolling on the floor in stitches with that one!

	23-11-2004 00:24									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Ned is going deeper and deeper into his delusions, he needs to see a psycologist.

And you, Odin, need to get a sense of humor.

	23-11-2004 00:39									#96
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Am I the only one getting the impression that no-one really cares about what skinheads, Fascist or otherwise, think?

	23-11-2004 00:53									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Let's cut to the chase. What was the growth rate for each year between 1932 and 1938 Mr. Stats?

Average Annual Growth, 1932-38:

Soviet Union: 8.1%
Germany: 7.6%
Japan: 5.2%
United States: 4.4%
United Kingdom: 3.8%
Italy: 2.8%
France: 2.1%

However, just to show that a liberal democracy can achieve similar rates of growth in peacetime:

United States, 1935-41: 7.8%

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I have already agreed that there was plenty of slack to take up, because that only reinforces my point.

how does it support your point of:

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious It's the most amazing period of economic expansion in history.

If there was faster growth in a similar period later under a liberal democratic government which had less slack to take up?

	23-11-2004 01:10									#98
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el freako, on the US growth rate 1935-41, I am willing to bet that the bulk of the growth occurred in years 1940-41 as America moved to a war footing. Do you have a year-by-year breakdown?

	23-11-2004 01:39									#99
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quote: Originally posted by el freako However, just to show that a liberal democracy can achieve similar rates of growth in peacetime: United States, 1935-41: 7.8%

When did I say that you can't have significant growth in a democracy?

quote: how does it support your point of:

Well I was taught that the German economic growth was the highest in history during this period from a professor of economics with a PhD. I would still like to see the year by year stats.

quote: If there was faster growth in a similar period later under a liberal democratic government which had less slack to take up?

I'm just curious about the year by year stats. If I was taught wrong then it's no big deal. Again, I'm not arguing that you can't have economic growth with a democracy.

	23-11-2004 01:47									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Saras Let's see if some legal genius from UK confirms this.

Hello!

Yes- Parliament (the Commons) could abolish the monarchy. Or appoint a new monarch, like we did in 1688.

	23-11-2004 03:02									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Ned el freako, on the US growth rate 1935-41, I am willing to bet that the bulk of the growth occurred in years 1940-41 as America moved to a war footing. Do you have a year-by-year breakdown?

Sure:

1933: -2.1%
1934: 7.7%
1935: 7.6%
1936: 14.2%
1937: 4.3%
1938: -4.0%
1939: 8.0%
1940: 7.7%
1941: 18.2%

(note these figures are from the aforementioned 'World Economic Statistics' and are not exactly the same as the BEA data)

So, true up to a point, although the timing of the 1938 recession skews the figures.

Interestingly the BEA provides a breakdown of the contribution of different sectors to growth,

Total Growth, contribution of military spending, contribution of civilian economy:

1936: 13.0%, 0.3%, 12.7%
1937: 5.1%, 0.0%, 5.1%
1938: -3.4%, 0.1%, -3.5%
1939: 8.1%, 0.2%, 7.9%
1940: 8.8%, 1.2%, 7.6%
1941: 17.1%, 10.8%, 6.3%

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Well I was taught that the German economic growth was the highest in history during this period from a professor of economics with a PhD. I would still like to see the year by year stats.

It's quite possible he was using inferior data, the study I mention by Angus Maddison was only released a few years ago.

I'm reluctant to post a spreadsheet of the data as it is copyrighted material however the PDF version of the study (which includes the ability to download an excel spreadsheet containing all the data) is only $16.

Annual average growth rate of Germany (unified east and west for period 1946-68) and USSR:
1929: -0.4%, 2.8%
1930: -1.4%, 5.8%
1931: -7.6%, 1.9%
1932: -7.5%, -1.1%
1933: 6.3%, 4.1%
1934: 9.1%, 9.8%
1935: 7.5%, 15.1%
1936: 8.8%, 7.9%
1937: 6.0%, 10.2%
1938: 7.7%, 1.8%
1939: 9.4%, 6.2%
1940: 0.7%, -2.4%
1941: 6.3%. -20.6%
1942: 1.3%, 0.0%
1943: 2.0%, 0.0%
1944: 2.5%, 0.0%
1945: -28.8%, 0.0%
1946: -52.6%, -0.3%
1947: 12.3%, 11.2%
1948: 18.4%, 13.7%
1949: 17.0%, 10.7%
1950: 18.9%, 9.6%
1951: 9.2%, 0.5%
1952: 8.7%, 6.5%
1953: 8.4%, 4.3%
1954: 7.5%, 4.9%
1955: 11.0%, 8.6%
1956: 7.2%, 9.6%
1957: 5.7%, 2.0%
1958: 4.5%, 7.5%
1959: 7.3%, -1.1%
1960: 8.1%, 9.5%
1961: 4.1%, 5.7%
1962: 4.3%, 2.7%
1963: 2.8%, -2.3%
1964: 6.1%, 12.9%
1965: 5.1%, 5.7%
1966: 3.0%, 4.9%
1967: 0.3%, 4.4%
1968: 5.3%, 5.9%

	23-11-2004 03:08									#102
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Woah, the USSR had recessions? I never knew that. 1932 was probably caused by Collectivizations of the Kullaks and we know what caused the drop in 1941.

No growth during the war or did they just not keep statisitcs?

	23-11-2004 03:14									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I have to concede this point to you, but I am curious as to what you believe qualifies as an atrocity on par with the Final Solution in Germany.

The answer will be the same every time you ask.
Slavery. treatment of indians. Selling Opium to the chinese(Opium Wars), subjugation of Africa, ME, and asia. To name a few.

	23-11-2004 03:16									#104
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quote: Originally posted by el freako Annual average growth rate of Germany (unified east and west for period 1946-68) and USSR: 1929: -0.4%, 2.8% 1930: -1.4%, 5.8% 1931: -7.6%, 1.9% 1932: -7.5%, -1.1% 1933: 6.3%, 4.1% 1934: 9.1%, 9.8% 1935: 7.5%, 15.1% 1936: 8.8%, 7.9% 1937: 6.0%, 10.2% 1938: 7.7%, 1.8% 1939: 9.4%, 6.2% 1940: 0.7%, -2.4% 1941: 6.3%. -20.6% 1942: 1.3%, 0.0% 1943: 2.0%, 0.0% 1944: 2.5%, 0.0% 1945: -28.8%, 0.0% 1946: -52.6%, -0.3% 1947: 12.3%, 11.2% 1948: 18.4%, 13.7% 1949: 17.0%, 10.7% 1950: 18.9%, 9.6% 1951: 9.2%, 0.5% 1952: 8.7%, 6.5% 1953: 8.4%, 4.3% 1954: 7.5%, 4.9% 1955: 11.0%, 8.6% 1956: 7.2%, 9.6% 1957: 5.7%, 2.0% 1958: 4.5%, 7.5% 1959: 7.3%, -1.1% 1960: 8.1%, 9.5% 1961: 4.1%, 5.7% 1962: 4.3%, 2.7% 1963: 2.8%, -2.3% 1964: 6.1%, 12.9% 1965: 5.1%, 5.7% 1966: 3.0%, 4.9% 1967: 0.3%, 4.4% 1968: 5.3%, 5.9%

The growth rate of Germany from 1933-39 is much more impressive. I think that's what he meant. That was about 10 years ago that I was taught that so these numbers might be significantly different.

He also might have been speaking of measuring employment instead. I know that the employment situation in Germany was the worst in the world and the Nazis created an extraordinary amount of jobs.

Another possibility is that he meant that the economic growth of Germany was the greatest up until that time.

	23-11-2004 03:24									#105
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My point in this argument is that a fascism is not necessarily bad or evil. Same with Republicans and Communists. It's just certain one's that give the whole group a bad name. Hitler, Ned, and Stalin.

	23-11-2004 03:26									#106
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quote: The Patriot Act enhances individual liberty by keeping us safe from terrorists.

The Soviet Union enhanced liberty by keeping its people safe from capitalists.

	23-11-2004 03:37									#107
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Woah, the USSR had recessions? I never knew that. 1932 was probably caused by Collectivizations of the Kullaks and we know what caused the drop in 1941. No growth during the war or did they just not keep statisitcs?

Probably didn't keep the stats (from which these estimates are derived btw, the USSR never used GDP as a measure AFAIK)

It's also interesting to see the drop in 1963 and recovery in '64 - related to the cuban missile crisis, or the falling-out with China?

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Another possibility is that he meant that the economic growth of Germany was the greatest up until that time.

Well, up until that point it was the fastest 6-year period of growth (8.1% average) - although interestingly the second fastest was under the Weimar Republic in 1923-29 (7.4%), and both those and the 6-year post-war recovery period to 1952 (14.0% average growth) came after large falls which skews the picture somewhat (a much better way is to look at the deviation from a trend)

	23-11-2004 03:43									#108
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quote: Originally posted by el freako It's also interesting to see the drop in 1963 and recovery in '64 - related to the cuban missile crisis, or the falling-out with China?

This pulls the rug out from underneath Marxism unless there are concrete explanations for each event, such as a bone-headed decision on the part of the leadership or an invasion or whatnot. The whole point of socialism is to do away with business cycles by rationalizing investment and distribution, and if they continue to exist, wow.

	23-11-2004 03:49									#109
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara This pulls the rug out from underneath Marxism unless there are concrete explanations for each event, such as a bone-headed decision on the part of the leadership or an invasion or whatnot. The whole point of socialism is to do away with business cycles by rationalizing investment and distribution, and if they continue to exist, wow.

Yes there were similar slowdowns in 1972 (0.6% growth) and 1975 (0.3%) and the whole period 1979-81 (when despite the soaring price of oil, the USSR's main export, GDP rose only by an average of 0.2% a year).

	23-11-2004 04:00									#110
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quote: Originally posted by VJ What's wrong with fascism, che?

Exhibit A


VJ, there's plenty of oppurtunities for good trolls, but there is a line between being a good troller and being an asshole.

	23-11-2004 04:17									#111
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara This pulls the rug out from underneath Marxism unless there are concrete explanations for each event, such as a bone-headed decision on the part of the leadership or an invasion or whatnot. The whole point of socialism is to do away with business cycles by rationalizing investment and distribution, and if they continue to exist, wow.

I don't think you can really call it a business cycle. For example, I don't think investment fell off. Earnings from foreign exchange varied from year to year though.

	23-11-2004 04:21									#112
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quote: Originally posted by el freako Well, up until that point it was the fastest 6-year period of growth (8.1% average) - although interestingly the second fastest was under the Weimar Republic in 1923-29 (7.4%), and both those and the 6-year post-war recovery period to 1952 (14.0% average growth) came after large falls which skews the picture somewhat (a much better way is to look at the deviation from a trend)

btw, the Nazis didn't just pick up the slack. In fact, they made every effort to limit private investment and consumption. They made huge investments in public investment and of course armament.

	23-11-2004 12:14									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Hello! Yes- Parliament (the Commons) could abolish the monarchy. Or appoint a new monarch, like we did in 1688.

So the Commons can vote itself, or the PM, as dictator for life, and the Lords and the monarch would not have a legal instrument to do anything about it?..

	23-11-2004 14:20									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Pax My point in this argument is that a fascism is not necessarily bad or evil. Same with Republicans and Communists. It's just certain one's that give the whole group a bad name. Hitler, Ned, and Stalin.

PAX, I once had a good time talking with you here. It is too bad you have junked your sense of civility. You are now on my ignore list.

	23-11-2004 16:28									#115
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The growth rates of Germany needs to be divided into infrastructure and consumption, and each subdivided into civilian and military, before a true picture emerges of how succesful a fascist economy can be.

Then the annual deficit has to be subtracted. Was it 50 percent of the budget that had no financial base at some point?

	23-11-2004 17:19									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc The growth rates of Germany needs to be divided into infrastructure and consumption, and each subdivided into civilian and military, before a true picture emerges of how succesful a fascist economy can be. Then the annual deficit has to be subtracted. Was it 50 percent of the budget that had no financial base at some point?

But in a fascist system the state is only important, not the individuals. So the goal of the economy should be to benefit the state only. If a fascist system meets the goals of the state then it has been successfull, but if it has met the goals of individuals then it hasn't.

And the deficit really has not bearing on the situation at all.

	23-11-2004 17:21									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Ned PAX, I once had a good time talking with you here. It is too bad you have junked your sense of civility. You are now on my ignore list.

Get off your high horse Ned.

	23-11-2004 17:52									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious But in a fascist system the state is only important, not the individuals. So the goal of the economy should be to benefit the state only. If a fascist system meets the goals of the state then it has been successfull, but if it has met the goals of individuals then it hasn't. And the deficit really has not bearing on the situation at all.

I can understand that argument, at least the first part.
However in Nazism the volk (the people/race) was the important factor. Hitler at some point stated that frugality was a hindrance to scientific and cultural progress of the volk. It is out of the organic volk that the culture is developing - not, as claimed by the Marxists which he hated, out of the state.

In that case if all the nations resources went the state, then the Hitlerite vision would not be succesful. Of course then it can be argued that Nazism was a corruption of Fascism, or a subset. That is also why he seeked out short decisive wars.

And I would say that a deficit is very important - especially because inflation set in before the war. When the Nazi territory expanded the Reichsmark became legal tender in the occupied territory, significantly reducing the effects of inflation - since the excess in money was made good by adding a larger area of circulation. It might then be said that the deficit was only important in that it meant war would be inevitable.
If for instance Nazi Germany had become involved in a long war in France, it would have meant that the German economy would have crashed very soon.

	23-11-2004 17:58									#119
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Woah, the USSR had recessions?

	23-11-2004 17:58									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Pax The answer will be the same every time you ask. Slavery. treatment of indians. Selling Opium to the chinese(Opium Wars), subjugation of Africa, ME, and asia. To name a few.

So the US' drug war is perfectly legit?