22-11-2004 14:38									#181
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I guess it comes down to what are your political parties?

Are the freely associating groups of individuals?

Or are they stronger?

In the US, we have traditionally had weaker (at least on the national level).

While I think she should be able to put liberal down by her name (since being a member of the party, at least down here in the US, is up to you, you can't be kicked out (or assuredly Zell Miller would have been)) she shouldn't get any support.

Jon Miller

	22-11-2004 14:40									#182
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither The MP's don't get to run under the party banner if the leader does not sign their nomination papers. And so, we are right back at the basis of the problem. Your move.

I don't understand your insistence that it is a right of a Canadian to not only run for office but to run for office under the label of the political party of their choice. I can't be a freemason unless I obey the rules of freemasonry. If I don't like those rules I can make my own club.

	22-11-2004 14:40									#183
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or for example

Che can join the republican party

and larouche is a member of the democratic party (I am sure they dont' want him)

Jon Miller

	22-11-2004 14:42									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller I guess it comes down to what are your political parties? Are the freely associating groups of individuals? Or are they stronger? In the US, we have traditionally had weaker (at least on the national level). While I think she should be able to put liberal down by her name (since being a member of the party, at least down here in the US, is up to you, you can't be kicked out (or assuredly Zell Miller would have been)) she shouldn't get any support. Jon Miller

Zell could have been kicked out. He can't put Democrat down next to his name unless the party (through whatever means it governs these issues by) chose him as their candidate.

	22-11-2004 14:43									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller or for example Che can join the republican party and larouche is a member of the democratic party (I am sure they dont' want him) Jon Miller

I'm not sure what the rules are for basic membership in the US. But just because you join a political party doesn't mean you can run under their banner.

	22-11-2004 14:44									#186
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In other words Lyndon can't run as a democrat unless the democratic party tells him he can.

	22-11-2004 14:44									#187
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Otherwise there would be 6 democrats on every ballot...

	22-11-2004 14:45									#188
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I don't understand your insistence that it is a right of a Canadian to not only run for office but to run for office under the label of the political party of their choice. I can't be a freemason unless I obey the rules of freemasonry. If I don't like those rules I can make my own club.

I don't understand your insistence it is the right of a leader of a Canadian politcal party to prevent someone from running for office under the banner of the people in their party who chose that person to run in a riding for them.

	22-11-2004 14:48									#189
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse In other words Lyndon can't run as a democrat unless the democratic party tells him he can.

And exactly which single individual would there be to tell LBJ he could not run as a Democrat after he won their nomination? Hmmmm?

	22-11-2004 14:52									#190
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I don't understand your insistence it is the right of a leader of a Canadian politcal party to prevent someone from running for office under the banner of the people in their party who chose that person to run in a riding for them.

I challenge you to find where I said that we should legislate such a right. If I was making a political party I would spread out the decision making power. I don't think that we should force others to.

Everybody gets to make the rules in their own club.

	22-11-2004 14:52									#191
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My understanding is this. There can be a difference between what party you are a member of and what party (if any) supports you (the rules on this might differ per state).

For example, in LA I beleive there were 2 republicans and 3 democrats on the ballot. Most likely the republican and democrat national parties spoke up in favor of single candidates, but multiple ones can come from the same party.

Jon Miller
(Also generally you need a certain number of signatures or something to be on the ballot, I am sure that only one candidate per party had the help of the party to do so)

	22-11-2004 14:53									#192
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither And exactly which single individual would there be to tell LBJ he could not run as a Democrat after he won their nomination? Hmmmm?

I suggest you look into Teddy and the Bull Moose party to understand why political parties are run the way they are in the US.

The means for reform was not legislative.

	22-11-2004 14:53									#193
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I challenge you to find where I said that we should legislate such a right. If I was making a political party I would spread out the decision making power. I don't think that we should force others to. Everybody gets to make the rules in their own club.

That's horse ****.

The political process of any party that may ever form a government is something that all of us are concerned with.

	22-11-2004 14:54									#194
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to get on the presidential ballot requirse a lot of work

generally you need a lot of people on the ground, which most candidates don't have (unless they get the support of a party)

JOn Miller

	22-11-2004 14:55									#195
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller My understanding is this. There can be a difference between what party you are a member of and what party (if any) supports you (the rules on this might differ per state). For example, in LA I beleive there were 2 republicans and 3 democrats on the ballot. Most likely the republican and democrat national parties spoke up in favor of single candidates, but multiple ones can come from the same party.

That's because of LA's fudged up voting system. Hell, if a party wants to put more than one candidate on a ballot then it should be free to. But it's the party that grants the use of its name. Just like I can't present my movie as a Disney cartoon without permission.

	22-11-2004 14:56									#196
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither That's horse ****. The political process of any party that may ever form a government is something that all of us are concerned with.

Which is why it is an issue you should vote based on. DOn't vote for the rubber stamps and I won't either.

	22-11-2004 14:57									#197
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I suggest you look into Teddy and the Bull Moose party to understand why political parties are run the way they are in the US. The means for reform was not legislative.

Oh, forgive me. I thought we were talking about Canada and the 21st century, not some moose in the US in the last century.

Is the US our guide now?

Can I prepare for my right to own an Oozi?

	22-11-2004 14:58									#198
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither That's horse ****. The political process of any party that may ever form a government is something that all of us are concerned with.

Really? So I should have a say about how the Conservatives elect their leader?

	22-11-2004 14:59									#199
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Oh, forgive me. I thought we were talking about Canada and the 21st century, not some moose in the US in the last century

Seriously. Look up what happened when the Republicans ignored the clear will of primary voters in 1912(?).

You're slipping, NYE...

	22-11-2004 15:01									#200
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Oh, forgive me. I thought we were talking about Canada and the 21st century, not some moose in the US in the last century. Is the US our guide now? Can I prepare for my right to own an Oozi?

Canadian version of Godwin's law. Antiamericanism for its own sake. And from the unlikeliest source.

	22-11-2004 15:02									#201
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Really? So I should have a say about how the Conservatives elect their leader?

Yes, you sure as hell should. You should be able to have a say so that they don't go off the rails when they are a government and land this country up as a dictatorship, which if no one has been paying attention, this country is only a single 'fire in Parliament' away from at any given time.

No **** you have a stake in how the Conservatives, and Liberals, chose their leaders. They very often become Prime Ministers, and that is all of our business.

	22-11-2004 15:03									#202
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Canadian version of Godwin's law. Antiamericanism for its own sake. And from the unlikeliest source.

Pfft.

Your're reaching.

	22-11-2004 15:05									#203
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I'm reaching?

I provided a clear-cut example of how parties will reform their selection process when spurred on by voters. You then deride my example through the oldest trick in Canadian politics.

	22-11-2004 15:06									#204
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Are you suggesting i should run as a Liberal?

	22-11-2004 15:07									#205
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No. Martin will fire you for saying that **** first.

	22-11-2004 15:07									#206
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btw, your example was American, so it invited American arguments, if you failed to notice.

	22-11-2004 15:07									#207
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Eh, parties are free to associate.

Freedom of association gives the Liberals the right to turf people out of their party, if they so desire.

Sure, it's plenty easier to win with the party, so we shall see how much of Carolyn Parrish's support is due to the party or to her.

I tell you, an MP who supports the party, rather than the party supporting the MP becomes an invaluable asset to the party, and much harder to turf. That's why these people tend to rise in the party and become leaders.

	22-11-2004 15:08									#208
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****. I agree with Ben.

	22-11-2004 15:09									#209
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse No. Martin will fire you for saying that **** first.

Nope.I can do no wrong in the eyes of Martin unkless I say i don't give a **** if he wins the next election.

Get it right.It wasn;t that she was anti-American, it was that she told the Liberal party to **** off.

	22-11-2004 15:09									#210
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse ****. I agree with Ben.

Ergo, you are wrong.