22-11-2004 14:08									#151
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Nobody forced anybody to join the Liberals or to vote for them. The candidacy process is striaghtforward. Spending limits give indpendents with proper motivation the ability to advertise on the same level as their competition. Voting for a national party with a centralised nomination process is a choice that Canadians make. The leader is given exactly as much power as his caucus gives him. This caucus is selected by Canadians. Period.

Except when the leader refuses to sign nomination papers because someone got 'uppity', then the caucus is decided by the PMO, not by Canadians.

And you like this system?

	22-11-2004 14:08									#152
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither You think that banishing Parrish and making sure she will lose the next election, no matter what else happens, is good for free speech? What a curious definition of freedom you have.

Did Martin pop a cap in every one of the people in her district who might vote for her? Did he put his caucus on the rack to make sure they would continue to support him after he fired her? If not then the fact that Martin has the power to fire Parrish is a direct result of the choice of every Canadian who belongs to the Liberals or voted for them. Who am I to tell people that they can't make a club where it's my way or the highway? Who am I to tell Canadians that they can't vote for that club?

	22-11-2004 14:11									#153
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Nobody forced anybody to join the Liberals or to vote for them. The candidacy process is striaghtforward. Spending limits give indpendents with proper motivation the ability to advertise on the same level as their competition. Voting for a national party with a centralised nomination process is a choice that Canadians make. The leader is given exactly as much power as his caucus gives him. This caucus is selected by Canadians. Period.

Nobody forced anyone to be a police officer. So they should not ***** when we override their collective bargaining rights for the good of the community and tell them that they will be happy with the pork chop we are throwing them and they have no choice if they dont.

	22-11-2004 14:11									#154
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Except when the leader refuses to sign nomination papers because someone got 'uppity', then the caucus is decided by the PMO, not by Canadians.

Canadians voted for candidates from a party where this possibility exists. Like I said: I don't favour legislating what politics people are allowed to play. I'm never going to vote for a Liberal patsy but why should I tell somebody else that they're not allowed to?

	22-11-2004 14:13									#155
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Nobody forced anyone to be a police officer. So they should not ***** when we override their collective bargaining rights for the good of the community and tell them that they will be happy with the pork chop we are throwing them and they have no choice if they dont.

And you continue to ignore the fact that one is a question of economics and one is a question of politics, free speech and free association.

	22-11-2004 14:14									#156
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I am in favour of legislating the one. Not the other.

	22-11-2004 14:15									#157
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Did Martin pop a cap in every one of the people in her district who might vote for her? Did he put his caucus on the rack to make sure they would continue to support him after he fired her? If not then the fact that Martin has the power to fire Parrish is a direct result of the choice of every Canadian who belongs to the Liberals or voted for them. Who am I to tell people that they can't make a club where it's my way or the highway? Who am I to tell Canadians that they can't vote for that club?

No, he is going to withhold his signature from nomination papers. Meaning someone else will get the Liberal nod. Meaning someone else will have the benefit of the Liberal machine in that riding, and the benefit of the word 'Liberal' next to the name on the ballot.

I'd sort of be surprised if Parrish won again, but not much. She might be in the right place at the right time. She might be successful in telling the PM to **** off. Unfortunately, not many others are so successful.

	22-11-2004 14:16									#158
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I don't know if you'd noticed but we all have one vote.

We don't all have a million dollars. Therein lies the difference...

	22-11-2004 14:18									#159
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither No, he is going to withhold his signature from nomination papers. Meaning someone else will get the Liberal nod. Meaning someone else will have the benefit of the Liberal machine in that riding, and the benefit of the word 'Liberal' next to the name on the ballot. I'd sort of be surprised if Parrish won again, but not much. She might be in the right place at the right time. She might be successful in telling the PM to **** off. Unfortunately, not many others are so successful.

And I agree with you. I don't vote for rubber stamps. Neither should anybody else. But I don't want to tell people that they can't.

	22-11-2004 14:21									#160
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Hmm

I understand that she shouldn't get the party support, if the party doesn't like her.

But she still should be able to put Liberal down by her name.

Jon Miller

	22-11-2004 14:22									#161
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Why? She isn't a member of the club. They threw her out of the clubhouse. I can't say that I'm a Nobel Laureate or a full professor at Harvard...

	22-11-2004 14:24									#162
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse And you continue to ignore the fact that one is a question of economics and one is a question of politics, free speech and free association.

Actually, it's a question of how we govern ourselves.

In other words, it's a very fundamental question, and it goes way beyond economics of individual freedoms. It goes to whether this nation will remain viable or not.

IOW, it's pretty important.

	22-11-2004 14:24									#163
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You can say it. It is up to others whether they beleive you or not.

Jon Miller

	22-11-2004 14:24									#164
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BTW, for the Americans here Parrish is the one who called Americans idiots and Bush a moron. So NYE is defending her right to remain a member of the government and I'm not.

	22-11-2004 14:25									#165
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Actually, it's a question of how we govern ourselves. In other words, it's a very fundamental question, and it goes way beyond economics of individual freedoms. It goes to whether this nation will remain viable or not. IOW, it's pretty important.

It's important, sure. But individual freedoms are inviolable except in extreme situations.

	22-11-2004 14:26									#166
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse And I agree with you. I don't vote for rubber stamps. Neither should anybody else. But I don't want to tell people that they can't.

The issue is the leader saying she is outcast, not the people.

	22-11-2004 14:26									#167
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I'm against much of the hate speech legislation we have, BTW. For the same reason...

	22-11-2004 14:27									#168
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse It's important, sure. But individual freedoms are inviolable except in extreme situations.

And Parrish's freedoms would be some of those, wouldn't they?

	22-11-2004 14:27									#169
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither The issue is the leader saying she is outcast, not the people.

The people voted for the MPs. The MPs voted for the leader. The people knew what the rules of the Liberal club were.

Game, Set, Match

	22-11-2004 14:28									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller You can say it. It is up to others whether they beleive you or not. Jon Miller

Try it on a job application. You'll be committing fraud.

	22-11-2004 14:29									#171
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither And Parrish's freedoms would be some of those, wouldn't they?

Parrish's freedom to have other people continue to let her use their name?



Must be in a part of the Charter I skipped...

	22-11-2004 14:30									#172
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse The people voted for the MPs. The MPs voted for the leader. The people knew what the rules of the Liberal club were. Game, Set, Match

Bullshit. The party voted for the leader. The leader became PM. The PM then subverts the MPs to his or her own program.

The people's choices matter very little in that equation, and that's the problem.

	22-11-2004 14:31									#173
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quote: The party voted for the leader. The leader became PM.

You skipped a step...

	22-11-2004 14:32									#174
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Parrish's freedom to have other people continue to let her use their name? Must be in a part of the Charter I skipped...

Maybe the part you skipped was not worshipping at the feet of a dictator?

	22-11-2004 14:33									#175
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse quote: The party voted for the leader. The leader became PM. You skipped a step...

No, I didn't. As was the case for several PMs of Canada.

	22-11-2004 14:33									#176
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Nice hyperbole. An astonishing lack of substance, though...

	22-11-2004 14:35									#177
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither No, I didn't. As was the case for several PMs of Canada.

Yes you did. 2000 and 2004. The PM isn't PM if his caucus doesn't support him. The caucus isn't in Commons unless the people vote for them.

	22-11-2004 14:36									#178
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In other words, you vote for your MP and you're stuck with what choices he makes. Including who he supports for the office of PM.

	22-11-2004 14:36									#179
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Excellent work gentlemen!

We don't want the Americans to learn too much about Canada and your discussion about Canadian politics will definitely glaze over their eyes.

	22-11-2004 14:37									#180
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The MP's don't get to run under the party banner if the leader does not sign their nomination papers.

And so, we are right back at the basis of the problem.

Your move.