22-11-2004 15:10									#211
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quote: I provided a clear-cut example of how parties will reform their selection process when spurred on by voters. You then deride my example through the oldest trick in Canadian politics.

Just look at the other independent elected to the caucus. No need to reach back that far.

Cadman told the Conservative nomination process to **** off, and ran anyways, and still won.

I'm working right now for another candidate who got shafted by that same process who wants to run provincially.

	22-11-2004 15:11									#212
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Eh, parties are free to associate. Freedom of association gives the Liberals the right to turf people out of their party, if they so desire. Sure, it's plenty easier to win with the party, so we shall see how much of Carolyn Parrish's support is due to the party or to her. I tell you, an MP who supports the party, rather than the party supporting the MP becomes an invaluable asset to the party, and much harder to turf. That's why these people tend to rise in the party and become leaders.

Yes Ben, the LIBERALS should be able to turf. The question is if the martian menace leader of the Liberals should be able to decide that on his own.

	22-11-2004 15:11									#213
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither btw, your example was American, so it invited American arguments, if you failed to notice.

What was the American argument?

The only argument I saw was that we can't learn anything from the US. Tying together two wholly unrelated issues simply because they've arisen in the same country is an interesting yet not compelling argument...

	22-11-2004 15:12									#214
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Yes Ben, the LIBERALS should be able to turf. The question is if the martian menace leader of the Liberals should be able to decide that on his own.

If the Liberals voted to give that power to their leader then that's their prerogative...

	22-11-2004 15:14									#215
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quote: Yes Ben, the LIBERALS should be able to turf. The question is if the martian menace leader of the Liberals should be able to decide that on his own.

Who's fault is that? The fault of the Canadian government, or the fault of the spineless backbenchers.

Hell, if all the spineless backbenchers walk out on the Liberal party, then what power will Martin have? What if the LINOs join the Conservatives?

	22-11-2004 15:15									#216
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Just look at the other independent elected to the caucus. No need to reach back that far. Cadman told the Conservative nomination process to **** off, and ran anyways, and still won. I'm working right now for another candidate who got shafted by that same process who wants to run provincially.

Yes, but in my example the system as a whole changed from then on...

	22-11-2004 15:15									#217
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse What was the American argument? The only argument I saw was that we can't learn anything from the US. Tying together two wholly unrelated issues simply because they've arisen in the same country is an interesting yet not compelling argument...

I think that the right to bear arms is a lot more current than the inner working of the Bull Moose party.

WTH made you bring that up?

	22-11-2004 15:17									#218
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse If the Liberals voted to give that power to their leader then that's their prerogative...

Not just theirs. It involves the government of Canada, therefore it is my business, and yours.

	22-11-2004 15:18									#219
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True, but the problems in that nomination were more specific to ONE riding association, and not to the Conservative party as a whole.

So there is no monolithic system to reform.

With the Liberal party, on the other hand, they have the handpicked 'martin dream team' for BC.

If the Liberals want to reform their party, then the backbenchers need to grab Martin by the balls, and threaten to take his government down, unless he agrees to a reform of the party.

	22-11-2004 15:23									#220
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Bullshit.

The problem IS the ability of all leaders to veto nominations. It isn't anything to do with the ability of parties to pick their candidates.

If you think that Mulroney, or the next Tory PM, would not use that power I would like to call you Ned.

Get it straight. Power of the party and MPs over power of leaders and Prime Ministers.

Why is this such a struggle?

Would you guys be happier with Castro?

	22-11-2004 15:27									#221
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Yes, you sure as hell should. You should be able to have a say so that they don't go off the rails when they are a government and land this country up as a dictatorship, which if no one has been paying attention, this country is only a single 'fire in Parliament' away from at any given time. No **** you have a stake in how the Conservatives, and Liberals, chose their leaders. They very often become Prime Ministers, and that is all of our business.

Really? So the people outside of Quebec should have a say about how the BQ operates and who it elects as their leader? Or are you going to create two sets of rules for political parties?

	22-11-2004 15:30									#222
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No. But they should have a say on the process and what can and cannot prevent a person from standing as a candidate for member of Parliament in this country.

Yes, I feel that national standards are in order, and I think that the power of the leaders should be broken by establishing those standards.

Call me a revolutionary.

	22-11-2004 15:45									#223
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So what you want are leaders with no power; something like a manager who can't fire anyone unless they have approval from other employees.

	22-11-2004 15:50									#224
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No.I want leaders who need to win consensus, not who command obedience.

If a leader can't persuade, what kind of a leader are they and how good are their ideas?

	22-11-2004 15:54									#225
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Even if stripped of all power in the Commons, something that is unlikely to happen, the PM would still be head of the government and have power over the civil service as well as holding the power to appoint judges and senators.

That would be a little bit more than a manager, don't you think?

	22-11-2004 15:54									#226
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So it is okay for a leader to fire someone for flagrant insubordination which undermines public respect for the party? Or is this something that should require a party-wide vote?

	22-11-2004 15:58									#227
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I think that only caucus should be able to expel from caucus.

That does not require a party wide vote. That trusts our MPs with the power we granted them by voting for them.

Parrish should have been chucked by the Liberal caucus (which she would have been in a New York minute after saying she couldn't give a **** about any of them winning again) not by Martin.

	22-11-2004 15:59									#228
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Even if stripped of all power in the Commons, something that is unlikely to happen, the PM would still be head of the government and have power over the civil service as well as holding the power to appoint judges and senators. That would be a little bit more than a manager, don't you think?

Most managers that I know have the power to determine day-to-day operations and to attend meetings where policies are determined.

Even those who delegate power, ultimately control it.

	22-11-2004 16:03									#229
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Most managers that I know have the power to determine day-to-day operations and to attend meetings where policies are determined. Even those who delegate power, ultimately control it.

And indeed, the PM would still control the agenda of any Parliament by virtue of control over cabinet and government bills.

What is sought is not a powerless PM, but more powerful MPs.

	22-11-2004 16:03									#230
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I think that only caucus should be able to expel from caucus. That does not require a party wide vote. That trusts our MPs with the power we granted them by voting for them. Parrish should have been chucked by the Liberal caucus (which she would have been in a New York minute after saying she couldn't give a **** about any of them winning again) not by Martin.

So you want rule by committee rather rule by a leader?

	22-11-2004 16:05									#231
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither And indeed, the PM would still control the agenda of any Parliament by virtue of control over cabinet and government bills. What is sought is not a powerless PM, but more powerful MPs.

How would the PM have control over bills? Are you saying you want to change the system so that only the PM can decide which bills get introduced into Parliament?

Edit: And what are the benefits of forcing the PM out of Parliament? Wouldn't this make the PM less answerable to his critics (the opposition would not longer be able to question him).

	22-11-2004 16:08									#232
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Only the PM (and Cabinet) decide what is a government bill that will have party discipline applied to it.

Only the PM and cabinet decide on budgets.

How far down do you want to split this hair?

	22-11-2004 16:09									#233
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai So you want rule by committee rather rule by a leader?

Where did I say that, sweetheart?

	22-11-2004 16:10									#234
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai How would the PM have control over bills? Are you saying you want to change the system so that only the PM can decide which bills get introduced into Parliament? Edit: And what are the benefits of forcing the PM out of Parliament? Wouldn't this make the PM less answerable to his critics (the opposition would not longer be able to question him).

Get back to me when you don't want to ask retarded questions.

	22-11-2004 16:25									#235
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I'm just trying to figure out the NYEverse.

You seem to want a PM who has the power to decide.... well not much.

The NYEverse PM can't make any decisions unless he gets the okay from the cabinet. Rule by committe in other words. The PM would have to have cabinet approval to fire a disloyal MP, to determine budgets and to determine which bills party MPs must vote for.

Seems like a pretty lame PM. And lord knows why don't want the PM in Parliament.

And in the NYEverse, if people wanted to create a party with a real leader, they would have to get the approval of Canadian voters before an election. Party members would not be allowed to decide their own party rules.

Yes, the NYEverse is a mighty strange place.

	22-11-2004 16:35									#236
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Bullshit. The problem IS the ability of all leaders to veto nominations. It isn't anything to do with the ability of parties to pick their candidates. If you think that Mulroney, or the next Tory PM, would not use that power I would like to call you Ned. Get it straight. Power of the party and MPs over power of leaders and Prime Ministers. Why is this such a struggle? Would you guys be happier with Castro?

Hah! NYE, I agree with you so don't go using my name in vain.

BTW, I one-fourth Canadian. My Grandmother fled to marry my Grandfather who had a farm on the American side of the St. Lawrence.

	22-11-2004 16:38									#237
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I think that the Federalist Papers should be required reading of all Canadians. Your love of an all-powerful parliament would soon vanish.

	22-11-2004 18:26									#238
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The vast, vast majority of that oil is shale oil. Because shale is a very friable stone with extremel low porosity and permiability it is almost impossible to extract most of Alberta's oil. Thus dispite having high amounts of oil in the ground Alberta's yearly out put is a fraction of Saudi Arabia. In the US and Canada the highest Petroleum producers are: 1) Texas 2) Alaska 3) Alberta 4) California 5) Louisiana

The technology to get that oil out, and the oil out of the oil sands, has just come around.

Good times are ahead.

	22-11-2004 19:16									#239
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I think that the Federalist Papers should be required reading of all Canadians. Your love of an all-powerful parliament would soon vanish.

Do you never let an opportunity pass to make us all look like arogant, ethnocentric ******?

But seriously, as a New Englander in Canada I do follow Canadian politics. I actually love Canadian politics. Its actually incredibly easy to understand, especially as an American... despite what people say. I'll give a quick overview on Canadian politics for American dummies.

The truth is, the American system is based on the British system too, just with one extra branch and some changed names (essentially), so there's no need to get all confused right on the onset. I'll make some parallels so Americans can understand... even if they're not 100%, but its still enough.

Basically if you took the American system, removed the office of the President and made the House Majority Leader the leader of the country, you'd have Canada... more or less.

-The Congress is Parliament.
-The House of Reps is the House of Commons (basically elected the same way... they're called MPs, Members of Parliament)
-Senate is the Senate... only in Canada they're not elected, but appointed (kind of pointless)
-House Majority Leader is the Prime Minister
-House Minority Leader is the leader of the opposition
-Governor General is President (She's a figurehead who represents the crown... she has ceremonial duties and spends alot of money... she's technically the head of state of Canada, but the PM has all the power).

The Provinces each have a mini version of this, just like States have mini versions of the Fed. Government. Only in Canada the Governor is a Premier, and members of the House are called MPPs (members of provincial parliament) or MHAs (members of the house of assembly).

	22-11-2004 20:03									#240
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quote: Originally posted by Uncle Sparky Che : When were you in Winnipeg ? I'm assuming you went to VJ's drive in or Juniors for the cheeseburger & fries. (same family)

Sep, 1991. Juniors seems to ring a bell.