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BlackCat
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According to my local radio Janukovitj has a crime history - one judgement for robbery and one for rape. If this is true i'm shure that a little election fraud wouldn't bother his nightsleep.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:18
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quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Duh. Just means that the West gave away the farm in Asia for nothing. This is pretty standard interpretation...
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Yeah, right. And Truman and Churchill were idiots, right?
American estimated casualties were over than 1 million in case of invasion, iirc.
quote:
 The Japanes gave up because the Americans had just nuked two cities and were threatening to do one every 3 days (they couldn't have kept it up for much longer, but the Japanese couldn't know that). The Russians couldn't do anything to hasten the end of the war in Japan by attacking armies in Manchuria since the Japanese had no way of getting their armies in Manchuria anywhere useful by 1945, given that their fleet consisted of two rowboats by this point. |
1) British and Americans firebombed German cities with no less deadly efficience than nuking of Hirosima and Nagasaki, still Germans fough till last man standing and it was when Red Army captured Berlin when Germans surrendered. US and GB could firebomb Japan cities and completely destroy them without any nukes. What make you think that Japanese were less fanatical fighters than Germans? They had a plans to arm their civilians with spears to protect Japan from the American invasion, in case if you don't know.
2) Why should they have to bring this army elsewhere? This army was protecting Japanese colony in China. This army wasn't take into accout during estimation of American casualties in case of invasion in Japan, iirc, and still this figure was over one million.
3) This 1 million Kwantung army was a capable force that could perfectly figh on their own. China was where Japan's resources were comming from. They didn't need supply routes with core Japan to fight.
4) With enterance of USSR into war, with Soviet successes in Manchuria, Japan lost any hope for stalemate and any will to fight.
5) Anyhow, Soviet campaign in Manchuria was a clear butt-kicking. Like it or not, Red Army demonstrated its combat efficiency once again, by destroying a one million army without one million casualties (like American analysts estimated in case of their invasion to core Japan). Soviet casualties were about 30 thousands, iirc. and they were on offense. It was the fine example of Soviet supremacy in field of doctrines and weaponry. The demostration that in 1945 Red Army was the best army in the world. And it was a fine payback, as well.
quote:
Technically shmecnically. The Japanese's balls shrivelled up once their cities started turning into craters. Once the US had shown it could do it a second time the fight went right out of them. The USSR could keep playing in Manchuria all it wanted to. Didn't make a lick of difference to the outcome of the war. |
Again, US could bomb their cities to the ground without any nukes, They have already perfected the firestorm technology on German cities. And despite the German cities were burned to the ground, Germans did't surrender utill Red Army destroyed their military force. Were Japanese really less fanatical than Germans? Did they really scared destruction of two cities or they really realized that they can't achieve a stalemate now, when Soviets DOW them and it's obvious that Kwantung army will be lost.
 Where the hell is David Floyd?
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Combat Ingrid
Well, after reading the links on this, I would say the information is rather vague. They were talking about "treated for a viral skin infection" without giving more details. Also, chemicals "not of a food origin" was mentioned. link
I want to know exactly what they referred to 
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Fine. At least we are agreed that it's pretty stupid, at best, to believe in diagnosis based on photo. Personaly I think that if any, at least remoted confirmation of this poisoning version existed, then Ukranian and Austrian medics that examinated Yushenko would already made it open for the public. This could be a real scandal and so many people in Ukranian opposition were interested in such outcome. But since they didn't, I prefer to believe that Yushenko just experimented for too long with a plastic surgery and caught a virus which destroyed his face. Just look at Jackson. He is a freak now. The same with Yushenko. Plastic surgery produces freaks, paedophiles and whining loosers or all of the above.
quote:
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That's why I don't believe in this BS poisoning story.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:18
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Have fun then, I see no contradiction.
I prefer this version, because hell know how many medics examinated him, find no poisons and suggested his sickness was caused by virus (probably as side effect of plasitc surgery).
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Mordoch
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Denver, Colorado
Jan 2002
time: 05:18
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By the way, it does look like the opposition is beginning to take effective control in Kiev.
quote:
On Friday morning five days into Ukraine's popular revolt, I was having to force my way through the barricades.
They had sprung up all over the centre of Kiev, on every street, paralysing government.
People were blocking the entrance to every official building. By sheer force of numbers, with one simple act of standing out in the snow, they have made this country almost impossible to run.
I had arranged a meeting with an ally of the prime minister, the official winner of the election. He couldn't make it.
He wasn't able to cross the barricades. When I eventually found him, he was looking a little shaken.
"Can you believe it," he said. "They wouldn't let me through. They cried 'shame, shame' at me. I feel hunted, like a fox."
Power of the people
I have seen revolutions in the Philippines and the former Soviet Republic of Georgia. The dynamics on the streets are fascinating to watch.
The way the crowds build until they reach a critical mass, so large that almost nothing can stop them. The mass senses it has enough power to face down the state. You can feel it in the air.
In Kiev on Friday that tipping point had almost been reached. I watched as squads of police cadets marched down the hill in double-quick time to join the protest. People lining the pavements greeted them with cheers. |
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programm...ent/4046251.stm
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:18
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The Guardian (UK)
November 26, 2004
Ukraine's postmodern coup d'etat
Yushchenko got the US nod, and money flooded in to his supporters
By Jonathan Steele
Oranges can often be bitter, and the mass street protests now going on in Ukraine may not be quite as sweet as their supporters claim.
For one thing the demonstrators do not reflect nationwide sentiments. Ukraine is riven by deep historical, religious and linguistic divisions. The crowds in the street include a large contingent from western Ukraine, which has never felt comfortable with rule from Kiev, let alone from people associated with eastern Ukraine, the home-base of Viktor Yanukovich, the disputed president-elect.
Their traditions are not always pleasant. Some protesters have been chanting nationalistic and secessionist songs from the anti-semitic years of the second world war.
Nor are we watching a struggle between freedom and authoritarianism as is romantically alleged. Viktor Yushchenko, who claims to have won Sunday's election, served as prime minister under the outgoing president, Leonid Kuchma, and some of his backers are also linked to the brutal industrial clans who manipulated Ukraine's post-Soviet privatisation.
On some issues Yushchenko may be a better potential president than Yanukovich, but to suggest he would provide a sea-change in Ukrainian politics and economic management is naive. Nor is there much evidence to imagine that, were he the incumbent president facing a severe challenge, he would not have tried to falsify the poll.
Countless elections in the post-Soviet space have been manipulated to a degree which probably reversed the result, usually by unfair use of state television, and sometimes by direct ballot rigging. Boris Yeltsin's constitutional referendum in Russia in 1993 and his re-election in 1996 were early cases. Azerbaijan's presidential vote last year was also highly suspicious.
Yet after none of those polls did the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe, the main international observer body, or the US and other western governments, make the furious noise they are producing today. The decision to protest appears to depend mainly on realpolitik and whether the challengers or the incumbent are considered more "pro-western" or "pro-market".
In Ukraine, Yushchenko got the western nod, and floods of money poured in to groups which support him, ranging from the youth organisation, Pora, to various opposition websites. More provocatively, the US and other western embassies paid for exit polls, prompting Russia to do likewise, though apparently to a lesser extent.
The US's own election this month showed how wrong exit polls can be. But they provide a powerful mobilising effect, making it easier to persuade people to mount civil disobedience or seize public buildings on the grounds the election must have been stolen if the official results diverge.
Intervening in foreign elections, under the guise of an impartial interest in helping civil society, has become the run-up to the postmodern coup d'etat, the CIA-sponsored third world uprising of cold war days adapted to post-Soviet conditions. Instruments of democracy are used selectively to topple unpopular dictators, once a successor candidate or regime has been groomed.
In Ukraine's case this is playing with fire. Not only is the country geographically and culturally divided - a recipe for partition or even civil war - it is also an important neighbour to Russia. Putin has been clumsy, but to accuse Russia of imperialism because it shows close interest in adjoining states and the Russian-speaking minorities who live there is a wild exaggeration.
Ukraine has been turned into a geostrategic matter not by Moscow but by the US, which refuses to abandon its cold war policy of encircling Russia and seeking to pull every former Soviet republic to its side. The EU should have none of this. Many Ukrainians certainly want a more democratic system. Putin is not inherently against this, however authoritarian he is in his own country. What concerns him is instability, the threat of anti-Russian regimes on his borders, and American mischief.
The EU should therefore press for a compromise in Kiev, which might include power-sharing. More importantly, it should give Ukraine the option of future membership rather than the feeble "action plan" of cooperation currently on offer. This would set Ukraine on a surer path to irreversible reform than anything that either Yushchenko or Yanukovich may promise.
Sceptics wonder where the EU's enlargement will end, but Ukraine is undoubtedly a European nation in a way that the states of the Caucasus, of central Asia and of north Africa are not.
The EU must also make a public statement that it sees no value in Nato membership for Ukraine, and those EU members who belong to Nato will not support it. At a stroke this would calm Russia's legitimate fears and send a signal to Washington not to go on inflaming a purely European issue.
j.steele@guardian.co.uk
Guardian Unlimited (c) Guardian
Newspapers Limited 2004
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/s...1359969,00.html
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problem_child
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State of the Animal
Mar 2000
time: 05:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Serb
Yanks are doing the same sh!t they were doing in Georgia not so long ago- if their puppet lose, they start revolution. The funny thing is that wives of both Saakashvili (Georgian president) and Yushenko are American citizens. The wife of Yushenko even worked in American administration years ago (she was an assistant of some kind).
Yankees please, go f*cking home, leave Ukraine alone, accept your defeat and don't provoke a civil war there.
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funny thing is Serb, it's obvious when it hapens, like they did in Venezuela for instance. but when somebody points it out, they're all like
"No, that wasn't us, we had nothing to do with it, those people were merely struggling for freeedom that's all" etc etc and that kind of thing.
I dunno if this Ukraine thing is the Americans again (probably) but it's in their style and has their mucky little finger-prints all over it.
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problem_child
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State of the Animal
Mar 2000
time: 05:18
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quote:
A few years ago, a friend of mine was sent to Kiev by the British government to teach Ukrainians about the Western democratic system. His pupils were young reformers from western Ukraine, affiliated to the Conservative party. When they produced a manifesto containing 15 pages of impenetrable waffle, he gently suggested boiling their electoral message down to one salient point. What was it, he wondered? A moment of furrowed brows produced the lapidary and nonchalant reply, 'To expel all Jews from our country.'
It is in the west of Ukraine that support is strongest for the man who is being vigorously promoted by America as the country's next president: the former prime minister Viktor Yushchenko. On a rainy Monday morning in Kiev, I met some young Yushchenko supporters, druggy skinheads from Lvov. They belonged both to a Western-backed youth organisation, Pora, and also to Ukrainian National Self-Defence (Unso), a semi-paramilitary movement whose members enjoy posing for the cameras carrying rifles and wearing fatigues and balaclava helmets. Were nutters like this to be politically active in any country other than Ukraine or the Baltic states, there would be instant outcry in the US and British media; but in former Soviet republics, such bogus nationalism is considered anti-Russian and therefore democratic.
It is because of this ideological presupposition that Anglo-Saxon reporting on the Ukrainian elections has chimed in with press releases from the State Department, peddling a fairytale about a struggle between a brave and beleaguered democrat, Yushchenko, and an authoritarian Soviet nostalgic, the present Prime Minister, Viktor Yanukovych. All facts which contradict this morality tale are suppressed. Thus a story has been widely circulated that Yushchenko was poisoned during the electoral campaign, the fantasy being that the government was trying to bump him off. But no British or American news outlet has reported the interview by the chief physician of the Vienna clinic which treated Yushchenko for his unexplained illness. The clinic released a report declaring there to be no evidence of poisoning, after which, said the chief physician, he was subjected to such intimidation by Yushchenko's entourage - who wanted him to change the report - that he was forced to seek police protection.
It has also been repeatedly alleged that foreign observers found the elections fraught with violations committed by the government. In fact, this is exclusively the view of highly politicised Western governmental organisations like the OSCE - a body which is notorious for the fraudulent nature of its own reports, and which in any case came to this conclusion before the poll had even taken place - and of bogus NGOs, such as the Committee of Ukrainian Voters, a front organisation exclusively funded by Western (mainly American) government bodies and think-tanks, and clearly allied with Yushchenko.
Because they speak English, the political activists in such organisations can easily nobble Anglophone Western reporters.
Contrary allegations - such as those of fraud committed by Yushchenko-supporting local authorities in western Ukraine, carefully detailed by Russian election observers but available only in Russian - go unreported. So too does evidence of crude intimidation made by Yushchenko supporters against election officials. The depiction is so skewed that Yushchenko is presented as a pro-Western free-marketeer, even though his fief in western Ukraine is an economic wasteland; while Yanukovych is presented as pro-Russian and statist, even though his electoral campaign is based on deregulation and the economy has been growing at an impressive clip. The cleanliness and prosperity of Kiev and other cities have improved noticeably.
There is, however, one thing which separates the two main candidates, and which explains the West's determination to shoo in Yushchenko: Nato. Yanukovych has said he is against Ukraine joining; Yushchenko is in favour. The West wants Ukraine in Nato to weaken Russia geopolitically and to have a new big client state for expensive Western weaponry, whose manufacturers fund so much of the US political process.
Yanukovych has also promised to promote Russian back to the status of second state language. Since most Ukrainian citizens speak Russian, since Kiev is the historic birthplace of Christian Russia, and since the current legislation forces tens of millions of Russians to Ukrainianise their names, this is hardly unreasonable. The continued artificial imposition of Ukrainian as the state language - started under the Soviets and intensified after the fall of communism - will be a further factor in ripping Ukraine's Russophone citizens away from Russia proper. That is why the West wants it.
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28-11-2004 01:10
Now that the Guardian agrees with me, how can I possibly state my POV without sounding like a complete moron?
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