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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:18
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Damn.. problems with the save, it seems. I think there is a good chance that either our rubber deal is causing it, or is also broken as a result of the problems. Trip, if you are following this, I can give more info on it, but you'll understand I'm not going to say too much in public about this. Even if Lego can guess it's about rubber, and it's coming from GoW.
We could e.g. work around this, if GoW pillages its extra source (last turn), so the deal ends automatically. It would be better, though, if the diplo flags are set correctly again, so we enter another 20-turn rubber deal
DeepO
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:18
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I was not involved in the planning of this great adventure, so take these words with a grain of salt.
As I understand it, the initial plan was to sweep the map of Lego naval units, and then maintain a chain to their mainland.
IMO, we do not, regardless of how good our economy is, have the strength to found cities, rush airports AND keep the pressure on.
We have failed at our primary objective of sweeping the sea-lanes, and until that is resolved, the mission as a whole is at great risk.
I would argue strongly in favor of an immediate switch to naval units in as many cities as we can spare (based on the assumption that we currently have units waiting to be transported across the water, and as such, have something of a backlog).
If we lose the chain, we lose the war.
-=Vel=-
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:18
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Hi Vel, great to see you chipping in!
I don't think there was a very distinct plan to sweep the sea, and keep it like that. Maybe we didn't spend enough time on this before... I don't really see it as a failure either. What we did set out for was to destroy all visible ships in the first turn, and make it possible to reach Lego without too much damage, and we did more or less make it. It would have been better if we had one more DD, but those things are past us.
I agree completely that it will be hard for our economy to keep an operational airport on Legoland... but do we really have a choice? Lego still has 9 BBs and plenty of subs, most of which are on our side. They can build over 10 ships each turn, while not compromising their land defense. If we start to build up a navy right now, the best we can do is some 10 units each turn, if we spend just as much on rushes as otherwise an airport would cost. We need to outproduce Lego if we want to keep the sea, but we can't... if at any moment Lego has enough, and builds 10 ships, they can always destroy the last hub, and destroy our chain.
Airports are far from ideal either, but at least we can protect them a bit (pillaging or rushing one in-land, and fighters help), and it has a couple of advantages. At any given moment is it possible to rush one, meaning that at any moment we've got the guarantee we can reinforce our troops. (we can't do it every turn, though). Further, an airport is a bomber-magnet, and we need such bomber-magnets on legoland, to keep their bombers from getting any ideas on Stormia (a naval race has the exact opposite effect, as undoubtedly bombers on carriers will be produced). The needed airports on Stormia are not wasted, in that they produce vet fighters and bombers (units we will both need in the near future) (they also cost upkeep and pollution, though).
Last, but in my eyes most important advantage, is that we split the effort. Rushing airports only costs money, substaining a chain is primarily a problem of shields. While we spend shields on maintaining a chain (as we can't leave it for a couple of turns, we need to consdtantly reinforce our navy), we can't build any MI, bombers, tanks, or whatever... at least with airports, we can have both units and transport capability. We will lose our research, but that's not important right now.
I don't think the situation is ideal, but it's the best we can do for the moment, I fear.
As to losing the war: it all depends on what our objectives are. My primary objective (well, after having fun, of course) has always been to damage Lego, so that we've got a chance to get at equal height. If that means we can secure some land on Legoland, fine. If not, do the damage we can without getting damaged ourselves. Long term, I see no future on Legoland, if we keep land there it will be for the sole purpose of keeping it from others... we can't dream of conquering Lego, that's not realistic.
To that goal, we currently have all the land units we need on Legoland. Sure, we can use more settlers, we can use more MI (and tanks too, although we've got nearly as much tanks as Lego has defenders), but we don't need to. We do need more bombers or art, but that will come either by air, or by capturing Lego units. The short of it: we don't need to reinforce our troops to reach my primary goal, although all extras are welcome, of course. If you compare what we landed to our initial plans, you'll see that we've got nearly 50% more troops on Lego than initially called for, while Lego's defenses are a bit lower than expected (first guess was that Lego would have 100 infs, they've got 90).
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Velociryx
I see no reason that this could not be a war of conquest. Given that Lego is fighting a two front engagement, if we can take even one city, we deal them a terrible blow, and from there....
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A lot depends on how they will react, but it will be hard for them to keep us from gaining a city next turn. And if they can keep us from taking a city, GoW will have almost free passage...
I'm not saying we shouldn't go for the territory, but for me personally, this is not the goal. It can be a dream, and we can work towards it, but if we have to retreat in 10 turns time, or are utterly destroyed, we won't be defeated if we can damage Lego enough to get at the same level as us, production and economic-wise. We made the mistake with the Bobian war that we thought that with our superiour forces (in number, not in strength) we were over confident, and were seeing ourselves as the new lords of Bob. Let's not make the same mistake again, even if we currently have both more and better troops, and an ally which can do something useful instead of RP's laughable defensive force.
Success will mean damaging Lego more then we get damaged. Conquering Lego means winning the lottery. Now, I don't mind going for the jackpot, but I'm not going to be fixed on that when a minor price can work for us as well.
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by vmxa1
That is what I see. If we bust one city and Gow does some damage. It will not be long beofre they will not be able to out produce us. |
mhhhh... I'm not sure, but at this very moment, I see Lego producing twice as much as us, maybe even more. That's a lot...
quote:
They are going to have to be very careful with those stacks of arties. If they are captured or even destroyed, they will be hard press to hold the invasion back. That makes it hard to put them in play and attack either civs invasion force. |
Yeah, those arties are going to be very interesting. with only marines, they could do it to put 10 art + 20 inf on a forted hill, and be sure we could not break through. But now that we've got 68 tanks to work with, and hopefully some bombers soon, this will change completely. My guess is that apart from some naval bombardment, and attacking our 8 orphaned marines, those arties will form a SoD together with e.g. 40 inf, and only be moved as one. And wherever they go, we'll see an instant fort from their workers. Anything else makes it impossible to keep the arties, and some decent city defense for Lego.
This is one of our advantages right now: we only have a point defense, Lego has a spread defense. Arties work best with point defenses. In a few turns, we're going to have problems with them as well.
BTW, there will be a couple of spots where they can be used, and left in the open. At least, as long as no conq's are present. With enough pillaging, arties can pillage roads, and stay out of reach of any of our units. But pillaging, while not good for our progress, diminishes production for Lego as well... auto-damaging, if you wish 
DeepO
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vmxa1
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Oviedo, Fl
Nov 2001
time: 21:18
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Yup, that is what I was thinking. They will have to be careful with those arties and that means not slamming us or GoW with them or risk them. Holding them back from all out use, is good for us.
What I meant by out producing them, is if both GoW and us managed to grab a city. We will then be in a position to smash a bunch of their production. Putting them in an inferior position.
That may not come to pass, but I have hopes. If RP actually gets a few conqs running lose, that will also cut their production.
I feel we will have to do more than just bust a city and some pillaging to come out in good shape. If we do that, the dam should burst and the alliance can put them out of the running.
If we cannot, then they will kicks us all of the land and be back in business in short order.
I agree that if they are forced to rip up a bunch of roads for defense, that is all good. You know that most of the cites are tightly balanced and will fall into a serious loss of production.
They will have to divert lots of gold or use entertainers to stay out of anarchy in some cities, in that scenario.
Yeah, I know many, maybe most are not native english. Everyone does so well, it is hard to tell. 
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:18
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Most damage will come from bombing cities, though, and not from pillaging. RP's conqs will be nice to have, but this is exactly why we need bombers, and lots of them. Without bombers, Lego can lose half their cities, and still be better than us. This is double true if that half of their cities are outer cities, like Quanto, Sando or Abilene. Quanto would hurt, but the rest? I doubt it.
The effect of pillaging / bombing roads by us will be partly corrected by Lego, I guess. At least, I would do it for as much as possible. Pillaged improvements is not the same as pollution: the moment a city builds a unit (e.g. their capital) they can cycle through all cities, adapt tile allocation, and rush where needed to keep finishing in time. Because of the lack of options in mobilization, this will be expensive in certain cases, but then again they can always adapt where they want to build what. In case a tank is too costly, build an inf, that sort of thing. Pillaging roads and mines is not going to be a large problem for them, unless it is really done en masse. Think 20 conqs at least for 1 city.
What we really need is factories destroyed, or caths. That is going to hurt in a city. Maybe we should start to keep track of that, what was destroyed in what city... or at least compile a list once we've got bombers and arts to use.
As to entertainers and slider for happiness: yes indeed... but I fear we will be hit first. I remember that somewhere I calculated that as long as we could get by with 30% happiness, we needed to stay in republic. I'm not sure how accurate that still is (as it depends on upkeep costs). Once Lego has radio and MI, they can go 70 or 80% happiness if needed.
DeepO
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:18
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Yes, I see capturing the arty as one of the mainstay goals of a sucessful campaign here. Not only would it be a crushing blow to morale, but it would see a huge "production shift" in that all those shields they invested in producing the arty are now "gifted" to us.
Same goes with capturing cities. It will turn the production tide twice as fast (well, not really, after accounting for corruption), but the point remains that every city we capture means one less production center for Lego AND one more for the Stormia/GoW side. This twin-edged sword, biting into their productive capacity and increasing ours, will erode their advantages very quickly.
True, as the campaign progresses, we will begin to see many of the problems that they face presently (defending along multiple fronts as we expand), but if they're stacking all their defenders towards the edges (donut-style), and the center is hollow, and devoid of much in the way of defenders, then the settler-blitz to the center could see us capturing a fistful of cities in a single turn, provided we break through somewhere, and THAT would wreck them overnight.
-=Vel=-
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:18
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nice meta-idea, Vel. Focus on taking from Lego what we can use as well. In the case of the arties I agree, with the cities, like you said yourself, the gain for us is minimal for the moment.
For the moment, we would do well in capturing and using arties, but once we get in a more difficult position to defend them, we should not hesitate, and use them to rush improvements or units. We are not morally connected to the units (we didn't build them in the first place), so the moment their use is diminishing and the risk of capture is increasing, they are better used as scrap material. Each art will give us 20 shields.
Donut-defense and settler blitz: there is a slight possibility Lego does not see the danger of settlers, and will focus on the outer shell as we don't have 3 move units. However, even with only tanks we are dangerous. This coming turn, there is no way they didn't pillage all roads around us, so we can only threaten 3 cities, and all inner Lego cities can be empty. But maybe in the future this will be different. Also, don't forget the transports: they won't be able to destroy all of them (it will be close, though), making them possible city-to-city chainers as well. If we get a break navally, and capture a city, we could go further. Lego will recognise this, and to avoid the risk should spread its defenses.
Next turn, and the one after that, the situation will be at its best. Around that time, we'll get to the point where Lego will at least hesitate to pillage all our roads (if we take one city, we can still threaten 2 or 3 others directly, even with all roads pillaged), as it requires a lot of units, possibly left in the open. That will be the best time for a settler rush, as Lego will continue to build loads of tanks over the next few turns, and our available troops will go down. After that period, we might never get a chance to pull something like this of.
Strangely enough, one of the best units Lego should be building are explorers, as they can pillage, and move out of harms way. At this point in the war, they will be better than tanks, and only cost 1 fifth.
DeepO
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01-12-2004 16:21
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