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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:18
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Some things we could think on before playing this turn:
- do we steal Lego's map? The price is still reasonable, but I wonder if we really need it if we are going to investigate cities anyway
- what units do we want to build? Currently, a mix of MI - tanks (and a sub) is foreseen. I was thinking on 2 things, though: In case we want to damage Lego, we could use a couple of bombers. The 12 bombers of GoW are picking a city each turn, and seriously hamper it. This turn, Legopolis lost half of its production.
- Further, there is something else I was considering... in case we want to send reinforcements to Legoland by sea, we are going to need to build up a new navy again. Our current one is mostly destroyed, and Lego has enough ships left. One of the few things we can expect them to do, is concentrate their navy on us... they know we're not strong in navy anymore, while GoW still has most left. They can't simply attack GoW, but it wouldn't be a big problem to keep us from reinforcing our troops, or at the very least keep us from chaining troops for instant reinforcements.
Other option is that we start to build airports everywhere.
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:18
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3:1? That's no MP game 
So far, we simply didn't have the time to build any, we needed to focus on the basics first. And still... we can't build too many now either.
But I was thinking that the war is getting in a new phase, and we should adapt our builds. It is very likely we will have a city on Legoland this turn, or the next. Which makes it necessary to shift from spearhead forces, to consolidation and harrassment forces. That we're not going to build more marines soon is a given, but also that although tanks seem a natural choice for any reinforcements (apart from MI, of course, which we'll also need for our home defense), bombers could proof more useful. Not only can they help in offense, they will also damage Lego on places which we otherwise couldn't reach without exposing ourselves too much. And, they don't suffer from the upcoming problems at sea, as they are easily rebased.
I'm not sure, but I'm thinking that as long as we've got a chain we build 4 tanks (+2 bombers) each turn, but the moment we lose it we should switch to 6 bombers + 2 MI at least. If we could get ~20 bombers over the next 3 turns, we're in serious shape to keep going on Legoland. Otherwise, we risk losing momentum.
One thing which would be brilliant is if we somehow would be able to break Lego's rubber road...
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by vmxa1
Ok, I will offer a small dissenting voice to the bombers. If this was C3C I would be all for it. In PTW they miss a lot and are not lethal.
They can do some damage to a ships, but cannot stop it. This is fine vs the AI as it will turn the ship around, Lego will not. They will know we have nothing to sink it. |
Okay, good point. We can't depend on bombers in our seas, if they aren't backed up by a decent navy. But we'll need that anyway, so I'll try to make navy a secundary priority (meaning that from now on, I'll keep on building at least a couple of naval units each turn, either for scouting or for home or chain defense)
quote:
Some navy make make sense, but I am not sure. It depends on how much we can get in a few turns to protect the chain. |
This is exactly the problem I'm talking about. We are in the minority navally, and have to work from a more difficult position (as we have to defend multiple points, while Lego doesn't have to defend any landing spot once we have landed already). We can try to get on top again, but this will require a lot of ships, at least 3 or 4 turns worth of production. We simply can't spend that much.
However, there might be a solution, in that bombers together with navy might be more cost effective... subs to scout, bombers to soften targets, DDs to clean up. It will depend on the situation, and on how good we can be in predicting what Lego is going to do. But, while we are building bombers, we could also use those for other tasks. In case our naval adventure fails, we still could have something left over to bomb Lego.
The thing I'm most concerned here is the simple equation: in the end, all units will die. While they are still alive, how much damage can a unit do compared to its shield cost? How much of this damage is instantanuously, and how much over longer time? Bombers are slow units, in that they do a little bit of damage over a longer period. As such, one bomber is worth more than one tank, and more than one DD. But they have to survive long enough to become effective... and sometimes you need fast units (e.g. marines, which are the fastest units in Civ). The whole question is if this is the time when we need to change our strategy from a 'fast' unit composotion, to a 'slower' one.
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I would rather have airports to make instant transport of most things and vet fighters later to defend bombers. We only need one on Lego and 4 to 8 on stormia. |
Agreed, in principal. If I would be facing AI, there wouldn't be a chance I would have left for an invasion unless I would've got more airports than I could produce units. However, there is one major problem here: we simply didn't had the choice so far. We couldn't waste the shields on airports.... and frankly, we still can't. As long as we've got a chain, transports will be a lot more cost effective.
But this might chance... fast. In case the chain didn't survive, we have to make a decision, and make one fast. Are we going to depend on transports or airports in the future for our reinforcements? Now that the main part of our navy is destroyed (and the rest of it did exactly what it was built for, namely to bring the bulk of our forces to Legoland), the cost is going to be the same. Building 8 airports on Stormia, and rush 1 on Legoland (and have another one on stand by, as they will be targeted by Lego), is about the same cost as building a decent navy, which can safely bring reinforcements to Legoland.
It might be a matter of taste, perhaps, but everyone will have its own views... It's a fresh start, so this is an important decision to make as a team. I'm sligthly in favour of airports myself, but the problem is that we need 2 turns of our production to set it up, while transports are still working at minimal cost. So, I wouldn't mind a gradual change, while as long as possible we're trying to keep a naval path open.
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Krill
Cutting the rubber rooad would only be useful once. If lego are smart, and so far I see no reason to not follow that assumption, then they will have some workers on that tile already to stop use cutting it. I understand that they only have, what? 2 workers? but that is the place where they should put it. I would still take those 20 bombers though, for all the other reasons, and the bonus that we can cut roads without leaving units open. |
Yes and no. Let's say we've got 20 bombers... and Lego knows it's rubber source is under attack. Sure, they can put workers on guard, and they should have (we currently have workers on both iron and oil, 2 resources bombers could cut). However, will it protect the whole path to the resource? In the worst case scenario, only 8 tiles connect the resource to the rest of the road network... 20 bombers have a decent chance of cutting that. Add a couple of conq's, explorers, maybe a closeby city which we could capture, and you get to to a possible situation where 20 bombers could make Lego be without rubber for 2 turns. That alone, even if Vondrack keeps on playing as good as he has been doing, will be a major attraction for building bombers. That opportunity is like winning the jackpot, after buying a year's wages on lottery tickets (bombers do not come cheap either  )
quote:
I also agree on a couple more subs, and another navy, even if it is only about 3 TR and 3 DES. There is going to be a point when we need to move whatever Marines we have left to fork a couple of cities to take the pressure of the tanks. |
Yes, on top of the transport capability, it would be nice to keep a marine threat as well. However, I fear that the way the situation is now, we won't win that battle. At this point, I consider all DDs as cannon fodder, taking a BB with it if possible, while all transports are to be considered scrap metal for rushing. Any ship we can safe (and I do mean any) would be a bonus... by the time we can come out of this situation, and have a credible navy both for our chain, and for threatening Lego, it will be too late, I'm afraid. But maybe we'll get lucky, you never know
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:18
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Lego still needs subs, in case we build a few. Every transport which is chained, is another 8 tanks on Legoland... that is easily worth the cost of 1 tank. If we stop building subs, I agree that they don't needs any either. They've got 7(?) present for scouting, and that should be enough to cover most of the sea.
We, OTOH, desperately need a couple of subs. Right now we have the initiative on Legoland, and therefore are reasonably safe at home. However, this can change quickly. Lego has 15 transports, the moment they can afford it, we can face an invasion ourselves. We have no way of defending to that kind of force, unless we've got at least a 1-turn warning... for which we need subs.
And don't forget Vox could get some ideas as well.
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by vmxa1
They have 15 transports, but unless they are filled and at sea now they will not be a factor. We will either bust them or be in deep trouble in a few turns. |
I do not disagree, however they don't need to be filled, vmxa. Lego can chain just as easily as we can. Plus, they only need 2 chain hubs instead of 3 because of Magellan's. With chaining, that's still 7 transports full of troops, which is way too much for us if we don't detect them in time. I'm not saying we have to build the navy which can deal with such a threat, but we do need to have the scouts, so we at least can put some land defenses in order.
quote:
I don't know what Vox is doing, but they are not long for the world, if Lego does not stop the invasion. They should be tossign what they have in to defend Lego now. |
Yes indeed. But look at the geographical layout: Vox can't walk into Legoland, without either using transports, or borrowing a city from Lego for 1 turn (which is certainly possible, we wouldn't even detect it as Vox is before Lego in turn order). That's a lot of trouble (high cost for Vox-Lego), and for very little extra Vox can open a second front on Stormia. I'm not saying I think this is definately going to happen soon, but it is a possibility, and one with high risks. So we should keep it in mind, and try to at least spot them coming.
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:18
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well those units aren't at sea, at least not last turn. This discussion is not for the next 2 turns, I guess, but we'll have to think on it soon enough if we want to prepare anything decent. The moment they can destroy GoW's or our invasion forces, we are in danger of chainers.
Also, they don't need a lot to damage us considerably. Our best defense (Elipolis and WoC) currently consists of 2 MI, 1 I, 2 Art. With 20 marines (which they can build in 1 turn), those cities would fall. Add a couple of infs and a couple of tanks, and they've got too much of an invasion force than we can currently handle.
And Krill is right: it's not the ROP, it's Invoice that is blocking Vox from entering Legoland. However, Vox and Lego follow each other in turn order, and it would be easy for Lego to offer Invoice to Vox for 1 turn, opening the gate to their empire. They would lose cultural buildings, and whatever is in the food and shield boxes, but that is a low cost if it keeps them from losing a city or 2.
DeepO
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Aeson
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orangesoda
Nov 2001
time: 22:18
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The problem with using Airports to move units over will be that Lego can bombard our Airport(s) on their mainland away almost at will. It could still be worth it if we are sending over 8 units each turn the Airport survives, as that is cheaper than the Transport and it's Defender. We would need to rush an Airport each turn to get several units over for 200 shields. Since our Transports to do the same would likely be sunk, along with their escorts, this is still a pretty good deal. If we can pillage any roads outside our culture borders and within 2 tiles of our city then our Airport should be a lot safer.
So I think we need to either build several Airports all at once, or only 1-2 for Bomber production. I'd go with as many Airports as we can build in the next couple turns. It will take a long time before we can reasonably put up another chain once Lego finishes off this one. Next turn we could have built an Airport on Lego, and would want as many of the Airports as possible finished by that point.
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We have to have some navy or Lego will be able to bombard our coastal cities and tiles with their's. The best bet for us is going to be to use Destroyers in cities with Bombers pinging down the targets. Only after we can sink several Lego ships, or build a sizeable navy back up, should we be putting out to sea. Lego just has so much of an advantage right now we can't catch up peicemeal. Anything we send out right now should be considered sunk.
For that reason I would rather plant a spy with Vox than send Subs to spy on what they are doing. Lego has 7 Subs that are faster than our's. We'll almost surely lose any Subs we send out. They can maintain a sentry net which moves forward 2 tiles to check there are no Subs in range to attack their location, then back to where they started. If they do that we can never attack with our own Subs. Hiding Subs in our cities to catch any Lego Subs that stop nearby will help us though. Once we get enough Destroyers together to have an opportunity to sail out, we can use Subs to spot Lego's Subs, and use Destroyers to hit them with.
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I think we'll want to send over 8 MI this turn if the chain survives. If the roads have been cut and we can't take Abilene without too many losses no amount of Settlers will help us get anywhere. If Lego doesn't cut the roads, and/or leaves Abilene sparcely defended (relatively speaking), then the Settlers would be very useful. I doubt either of those will happen though.
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I don't know that we have much use for Tanks right now. If Lego leaves the roads up, we'll get use out of our Tanks next turn, and then they'll surely have figured out the way we used them. If the roads are down, I think we may have to use a ton of MI to just hold one city to base Bombers in and destroy as much of Lego's infrastructure as possible.
We probably have all the Tanks already that will be useful over on Lego.
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So I think we should build Airports first. Then MI, Destroyers, and Bombers.
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Aeson
The problem with using Airports to move units over will be that Lego can bombard our Airport(s) on their mainland away almost at will. It could still be worth it if we are sending over 8 units each turn the Airport survives, as that is cheaper than the Transport and it's Defender. We would need to rush an Airport each turn to get several units over for 200 shields. Since our Transports to do the same would likely be sunk, along with their escorts, this is still a pretty good deal. If we can pillage any roads outside our culture borders and within 2 tiles of our city then our Airport should be a lot safer. |
Somehow I thought airports were 160 shields? I'll check next turn, as it matters when to build what. If they are 200 shields, they can basically be built in all cities. 160 shields makes some cities better for this.
Anyway, 200 shields (or even 160) is not cheap, and not near as cheap as a transport + escort. We've got to rush the Lego airport, where we can build ships in our core cities the normal way. We're not making enough gold to throw it around at will.
I agree Lego can bomb us, and have a very good chance of destroying our airport. However, I don't really mind, as long as we've got the cash. From the battle report, we will find out before playing our turn, which means we can instantly rush a new airport as long as keep a city on Legoland. If we plan for it, we can have a couple of (obsolete) units present, which can seed, or complete a rush. And the main advantage is that airports on Legoland can be rebuilt. Lego bombarding Stormia is disastrous in comparison.
quote:
So I think we need to either build several Airports all at once, or only 1-2 for Bomber production. I'd go with as many Airports as we can build in the next couple turns. It will take a long time before we can reasonably put up another chain once Lego finishes off this one. Next turn we could have built an Airport on Lego, and would want as many of the Airports as possible finished by that point. |
I agree, either we do it good, or we don't bother. And as our chain is not going to survive unless we focus solely on navy the next couple of turns, we don't really have a choice...
quote:
We have to have some navy or Lego will be able to bombard our coastal cities and tiles with their's. The best bet for us is going to be to use Destroyers in cities with Bombers pinging down the targets. Only after we can sink several Lego ships, or build a sizeable navy back up, should we be putting out to sea. Lego just has so much of an advantage right now we can't catch up peicemeal. Anything we send out right now should be considered sunk. |
Again agreed, and in a way this point has been made before too. What we currently have is too few, and is to be considered lost. Every surviving ship is an extra. And, seeing the production advantage of Lego, it will be extremely hard for us to break this advantage of theirs.
quote:
For that reason I would rather plant a spy with Vox than send Subs to spy on what they are doing. Lego has 7 Subs that are faster than our's. We'll almost surely lose any Subs we send out. They can maintain a sentry net which moves forward 2 tiles to check there are no Subs in range to attack their location, then back to where they started. If they do that we can never attack with our own Subs. Hiding Subs in our cities to catch any Lego Subs that stop nearby will help us though. Once we get enough Destroyers together to have an opportunity to sail out, we can use Subs to spot Lego's Subs, and use Destroyers to hit them with. |
I can't agree with you here. Sure, I know the risks our subs will face, but there is very little alternative. We simply need to spot an incoming invasion 1 turn before, or we're toast. Having a spy will warn us on large movements, but can't warn us for chainers, and the production of the current turn. Lego can build 20 marines (at one moment, they built 26 100-shield units in a turn), 20 marines will overrun a citiy's defense unless we identify where they can land, and protect that area more. We could rely on spies solely, but in that case we need to triple our defense of Stormia... we simply can't afford that. We might be able to do at least a bit of scouting with fighters, but I wonder how many we'll need, and whether we need to deploy carriers to give the fighters an extra range of 2 tiles. Once rocketry gives us jets, this changes (IIRC jets have a range of 6, right? we need at least 5, plus the 2 tile line of sight)
Aeson, you are right with the move 2 forward, move 2 back strategy of Lego. However, we can do nearly the same. Have bombers on standby, move 2 forward, 1 back if spotted nothing. Otherwise, bomb away, and move DDs closer. Sure, Lego has a better chance of doing this successfully, but we are not obliged to wait for them, and do nothing.
At any rate, we don't need to put our subs in the open, in range of Lego, but we do need to build a couple to keep a threat going. If we've got subs, Lego has to put a sentry net around their continent if they want to feel safe. That's a big difference with putting a sentry net around us. So, until otherwise asked, I'll keep the sub build in WoC for this turn, and will build at least 1 more over the next 2 turns.
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I think we'll want to send over 8 MI this turn if the chain survives. If the roads have been cut and we can't take Abilene without too many losses no amount of Settlers will help us get anywhere. If Lego doesn't cut the roads, and/or leaves Abilene sparcely defended (relatively speaking), then the Settlers would be very useful. I doubt either of those will happen though. |
Nope. You're forgetting something here. I fully agree that it's doubtful those settlers can be used this turn, and possibly not even the next one either. But we simply have to bring them: we can't be sure to build any settlers on Legoland in the next couple of turns (other builds take priority, e.g. barracks, harbors and airports). But the main problem is they can't be airlifted onto Legoland. We will lose the sea, we will lose any hopes of getting another transport across, unless we focus on navy. It seems everybody agrees we need to go for airports, which means that for as long as we've got a chain going, we need to bring all settlers we can to Legoland. This turn, there is a slight chance our chain still exists. Next turn, there is no chance anymore, but certainty it is destroyed, without hopes of rebuilding it soon. We have to act right now, if at all possible, even if it means taking a bit of risk by transporting 4 less MI.
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I don't know that we have much use for Tanks right now. If Lego leaves the roads up, we'll get use out of our Tanks next turn, and then they'll surely have figured out the way we used them. If the roads are down, I think we may have to use a ton of MI to just hold one city to base Bombers in and destroy as much of Lego's infrastructure as possible.
We probably have all the Tanks already that will be useful over on Lego. |
Agreed here. I was already planning on changing all tank builds to bombers (or better airports, if they are 200 shields. At 160 shields, that's a lot trickier but I'll see what I can do)
quote:
So I think we should build Airports first. Then MI, Destroyers, and Bombers. |
I prefer bombers over DDs, but otherwise I agree, yes. MI is not so easy to prioritize: as they are 110 shields, some cities are better to build these than others. I think it would be economically best if we keep a couple of cities on MI builds for the rest of the war, while using the other cities to build 100 shield units.
DeepO
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25-11-2004 18:01
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