06-12-2004 08:12									#1
	What games WONT run on Intel "Extreme" Integrated Graphics Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Most of the budget PC's out there (and no,Im NOT gonna build one anytime soon) come with Intel Extreme TM Integrated Graphics. And many (most?) dont even have a slot for a video card. So what games am I foregoing by buying a PC without a video card? I was inclined not to worry about this, but I noticed that Simcity4 has minimum video card specs (though im not sure it wouldnt work on the above) What recent games might be problematic? Note, Im not particularly worried about shooters. But what Strat games, city builders, RPGs, etc would likely give problems?

	06-12-2004 09:19									#2
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a lot

like morrowind for example (Which came out years ago)

Jon Miller

	06-12-2004 14:18									#3
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LoTM it really isn't worth buying these machine IMO, unless you don't want to play any games at all. Get a decent budget card for £100 and you'll have no worries.

	06-12-2004 17:06									#4
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Yep, i agree with what others are saying.
My 'new' P3-533mhz machine has that awful '810i' integrated graphics chip, and the only game it has enabled me to play over my trusty P166 is the city builder game 'Emperor'(the one after Pharoh) by Sierra.
I cant play either 'Shogun' or 'Medieval' total war for example because the graphics chip cant handle it!
EU2 does run better than on my old pc, but its not a game that pushes graphics so much as the processor.

The good news is that as long as the motherboard supports it(look for AGP slots), you should be able to get a graphics card that you can use to override the on-board one. I've got a friend who has a spare card i'm going to try on my pc, as long as Medieval runs that will keep me happy

	06-12-2004 17:54									#5
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I just bought a PCI graphics card (ATI Radeon 9200, 128MByte) for my PC for $50. Graphics performance on the Rollercoaster Tycoon 3 demo (my kids want the full game for Christmas) went from unplayable to acceptable at low to medium settings. So you can get by even without the AGP slot. I'll probably never be able to play FPS games on my machine, but I'd rather save some money than have bragging rights.

	06-12-2004 22:04									#6
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Is a real video card that expensive?

If theres nothing i want to play that needs it, then its too expensive, yeah

	06-12-2004 22:05									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller a lot like morrowind for example (Which came out years ago) Jon Miller

Thanks for the info. Im not real into RPGs (have only played BG and PST) but i might be interested in Morrowind.

	06-12-2004 22:08									#8
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor Yep, i agree with what others are saying. My 'new' P3-533mhz machine has that awful '810i' integrated graphics chip, and the only game it has enabled me to play over my trusty P166 is the city builder game 'Emperor'(the one after Pharoh) by Sierra. I cant play either 'Shogun' or 'Medieval' total war for example because the graphics chip cant handle it! EU2 does run better than on my old pc, but its not a game that pushes graphics so much as the processor. The good news is that as long as the motherboard supports it(look for AGP slots), you should be able to get a graphics card that you can use to override the on-board one. I've got a friend who has a spare card i'm going to try on my pc, as long as Medieval runs that will keep me happy

The sort of cheap machines have no seperate video card, but do have a slot, AGP i think. The super cheap ones have no slot -the Integrated graphics is all youre gonna get. The former I wouldnt even need feedback for, since I can always upgrade -its the latter Im worried about. So you couldnt run any TW games, even Shogun? Any others you tried that didnt work?

	06-12-2004 22:09									#9
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quote: Originally posted by DaveV I just bought a PCI graphics card (ATI Radeon 9200, 128MByte) for my PC for $50. Graphics performance on the Rollercoaster Tycoon 3 demo (my kids want the full game for Christmas) went from unplayable to acceptable at low to medium settings. So you can get by even without the AGP slot. I'll probably never be able to play FPS games on my machine, but I'd rather save some money than have bragging rights.

But you need a PCI slot, no?

so RCT3 is also unplayable on Intel extreme alone?

	06-12-2004 22:12									#10
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike LoTM it really isn't worth buying these machine IMO, unless you don't want to play any games at all. Get a decent budget card for £100 and you'll have no worries.

so what follows is a lie?

"Intel® Extreme Graphics


Intel® 845GE, 845GV, 845G and 845GL chipsets feature integrated Intel® Extreme Graphics, a graphics core that delivers 3D graphics with sharp images, fast rendering, smooth motion, and incredible detail. This architecture enables balanced memory usage between graphics and the system for optimal performance. Extreme graphics architecture was designed to complement the capabilities of the Intel® Pentium® 4 processor, and also supports the Intel® Celeron® processor.

TECHNOLOGY BENEFIT
Rapid Pixel and Texel Rendering Uses special pipelines that allow 2D and 3D operations to overlap to speed up visual effects without impacting system performance.
Zone Rendering Unique technology for drawing 3D scenes that optimizes performance between graphics and system functions.
Dynamic Video Memory Dynamically allocates graphics memory as needed to balance memory usage among the operating system, applications, and graphics.
Intelligent Memory Management Tiled memory addressing, deep display buffers, and dynamic data management assure efficient usage of memory. "

	06-12-2004 22:16									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by DaveV I just bought a PCI graphics card (ATI Radeon 9200, 128MByte) for my PC for $50. Graphics performance on the Rollercoaster Tycoon 3 demo (my kids want the full game for Christmas) went from unplayable to acceptable at low to medium settings. So you can get by even without the AGP slot. I'll probably never be able to play FPS games on my machine, but I'd rather save some money than have bragging rights.

Wow, they still sell PCI cards?

So, you would getter performance if you would skip AGP and use it on a PCI-E motherboard.

	06-12-2004 23:52									#12
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark But you need a PCI slot, no?

Yes. My machine is about 2 years old and had two PCI slots available; I'd forgotten that the PCI bus was being phased out .

quote: so RCT3 is also unplayable on Intel extreme alone?

Yes, on my machine anyway (Celeron 1.8 GHz, 384 MBytes RAM). The demo suggested I run it at "low" graphics settings and I did; I got about 1 frame/second when using the on-ride camera or during the fireworks display.

quote: so what follows is a lie? "Intel® Extreme Graphics Intel® 845GE, 845GV, 845G and 845GL chipsets feature integrated Intel® Extreme Graphics, a graphics core that delivers 3D graphics with sharp images, fast rendering, smooth motion...

It depends on what your definition of "fast" and "smooth" is . Actually, RCT3 was the first game my kids had any trouble with; they've run a variety of games that used 3D textures and rendering with no problems. But RCT3 explicitly called for a 32MB graphics card. My machine is also two years old, so maybe the onboard graphics chip has improved in the meantime...

	06-12-2004 23:54									#13
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If it is really new I could be wrong

I just no about the older integrated graphics

JonMiller

	07-12-2004 00:23									#14
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LotM, do you not feel confident enough to build your own pc?

	07-12-2004 04:42									#15
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LotM I know you don't require a ninja system but I think you'll probably regret buying that system with the on-board graphics. Instead if you don't want to do it yourself get a cheap no frills system made for you. It'll probably be a little more than the one you are looking at, but so worth it in the long run.

	07-12-2004 08:30									#16
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Spaced Cowboy LotM, do you not feel confident enough to build your own pc?

For a budget PC, the savings are not very big (i have gone as far as to look at component prices in my local PC super store flier, and im probably forgetting something) and no, ive never opened the box before.

	07-12-2004 08:38									#17
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike LotM I know you don't require a ninja system but I think you'll probably regret buying that system with the on-board graphics. Instead if you don't want to do it yourself get a cheap no frills system made for you. It'll probably be a little more than the one you are looking at, but so worth it in the long run.

Its not one system with the onboard graphics. Its every budget system. Long run - (refrains from quoting Lord Keynes) remember, we're from now on a 2 PC family - the dinosaur goes to POTM for NOW, but I would think in 2 years or so we'll have to get ANOTHER new one - POTM won't be able to stick to a 266Mhz dinosaur when she's in highschool, and the latest and greatest is a generation beyond what it is NOW.

I cant see the argument for spending an extra $100 to $ 200 for a machine with a good video card, when the onboard graphics sound ok, unless theres a considerable list of games out NOW that it wont run. Im NOT buying this system for games to come out in the future, ive got a backlog of games to play, going back to 2000 or so. Presumably games that required a 2000 or 2001 hotshot video card may be handled by the onboard, NOW???? Thats why in looking for specific info. Thanks to alll, of course - but it does seem no one here has this particular chipset - folks either have experience with older chips (Im encouraged that COT could play EU - but I had little doubt that EU would be a problem) or, like yourself, have discrete (and im sure very good) video cards.

	07-12-2004 16:06									#18
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@ LotM, well i can run EU2 on my P166 - the intro animation is jerky, but the game plays fine, although compared to the few quick half dozen turns i've tried on my new P3-533 system, it does get slow as the game progresses. So your 266 should play it to.

Here's my list of games that i've tested, that wont run with the integrated chip(810i 4MB shared memmory it says in my system info) on my P3-533 system.

Games i hoped would work but didnt:

1.Shogun Total War
2.Medieval Total War
3.Theif 2

these were the big three for why i got hold of this new PC, it had the MHz my P166 lacked - but that horrible on-board stuff

Games i havent tested yet but might also be a problem:

4. Theif 1
5. Imperium galactica2
6. Rune
7. One other 3D type arcade/adventure game i got.

Still its the first three games that have turned me off intergrated graphics.

If you do go for a pc like this then make sure you have atleast got a slot or two for a graphics card if its ever needed.
My P3 might have a pretty old generation of on-board graphics card though?

	07-12-2004 19:05									#19
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor @ LotM, well i can run EU2 on my P166 - the intro animation is jerky, but the game plays fine, although compared to the few quick half dozen turns i've tried on my new P3-533 system, it does get slow as the game progresses. So your 266 should play it to. Here's my list of games that i've tested, that wont run with the integrated chip(810i 4MB shared memmory it says in my system info) on my P3-533 system. Games i hoped would work but didnt: 1.Shogun Total War 2.Medieval Total War 3.Theif 2 these were the big three for why i got hold of this new PC, it had the MHz my P166 lacked - but that horrible on-board stuff Games i havent tested yet but might also be a problem: 4. Theif 1 5. Imperium galactica2 6. Rune 7. One other 3D type arcade/adventure game i got. Still its the first three games that have turned me off intergrated graphics. If you do go for a pc like this then make sure you have atleast got a slot or two for a graphics card if its ever needed.

thanks for your helpful response. I sympathize with your frustration, and in fact was worried about the same thing at the next level - buying a 2.6 ghz machine, that wont run, say, Civ3, or RON, or Simcity4.

quote: My P3 might have a pretty old generation of on-board graphics card though?

Well Intel says it has 64 Meg of shared memory, IIUC that would compare to the 4 MB on your machine.

I guess I will have to ask somewhere where people have this specific chip. May try OT, and then somewhere off 'poly (shudder)

	07-12-2004 19:40									#20
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Here's some news, I'm getting a new pc at work with...you guessed it, Intel Extreme graphics. However, I've found out that there are different versions of the IEG chips. The one I'm getting is the latest version and although it will not be able to run doom3, it should be able to handle most games...ahem it is for work afterall.

Just wanted to let you know that there are different versions of IEG chips, so the new ones might not be that bad.

Also, I agree, it is hard to beat the prebuilts for a budget pc. I could probably do it, but not some of those monitor and printer included systems for less than $400. Just have to wait on a deal, and don't expect the world from those machines.

You can build a pretty nasty machine for under $800 sans monitor, keyboard, etc. and the good thing about this kind of machine is that it will be upgradeable.

	07-12-2004 20:02									#21
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another quick thing ive learned about integ graphics while googling around - since the IG SHARES resources with the CPU, much depends on your overall system specs. 64 meg Shared video memory is great, but not so much if all youve got is 256 meg, and Win XP is taking half of that right off. So 512 Meg Ram might offset some of the problems of the Int graphics. And given that I may want 512 anyway, Im more inclined to go with a more RAM, and a faster chip, than with a discrete video card.

Also note - the Children of the Nile Faq says Intel Extreme is less than GEforce2, but equiv to Radeon 7000 (so whats that mean?), and will run COTN IF the CPU is fast enough (2 Ghz plus, I think)

	07-12-2004 20:24									#22
	Put an end to popups!

You can definitely run SimCity 4 with it, I'm playing it on a 2.4ghz Pentium 4 with 512MB RAM. It's not particularly fast but it works. For a joke I tried Half-Life 2 - incredibly, it worked for about five minutes and then crashed. That's when I ordered a new graphics card.

	07-12-2004 20:24									#23
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will wonders never cease!!!!!

It tunrs out Intel has compatibility table on their website, which says that intel extreme should work fine with Simcity4, Warcraft3, and Medieval Total War (nothing about Rome Total War). It will have problems with Half Life 2, Far Cry, Doom3, and Splinter Cell.

So it is as I expected (if theyre telling the truth, and im interpreting things correctly. And yes, I DO understand that just cause it may be okay for the games I like that are out now, it may not be so for games coming out in the future (starting perhaps with one that already out, Rome Total War)

	07-12-2004 20:26									#24
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Adrian Hon You can definitely run SimCity 4 with it, I'm playing it on a 2.4ghz Pentium 4 with 512MB RAM. It's not particularly fast but it works. For a joke I tried Half-Life 2 - incredibly, it worked for about five minutes and then crashed. That's when I ordered a new graphics card.

thanks. I suspect the strong general specs of your system help - it might not work as well with only 256 MB RAM.

	07-12-2004 20:38									#25
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark edit.... Also note - the Children of the Nile Faq says Intel Extreme is less than GEforce2, but equiv to Radeon 7000 (so whats that mean?), and will run COTN IF the CPU is fast enough (2 Ghz plus, I think)

Both those are old graphics cards, so i guess it means its not great?
If you want a cheap system, then pretty much all of the sub £800 pc i see have intergrated graphics cards. So if you have a tight budget you will have to get one, but as we mentioned, just check you have atleast one AGP slot for a graphic card later if needed.

When COTN comes out in europe i'm hoping to play it(i'll have to upgrade my processor though), but it sounds like even that game stretches the intergrated graphics cards - and that is based on an old game engine(Empire Earth), so i dont think you have any future-proofing at all with this option, all the more reason to have AGP on the one you get

	08-12-2004 00:05									#26
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Well, it's up to you LotM, and you make a fair case for your proposed purchase. Let's just say if you come in here complaining a few months down the line I wont be surprised.

	08-12-2004 00:51									#27
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike Well, it's up to you LotM, and you make a fair case for your proposed purchase. Let's just say if you come in here complaining a few months down the line I wont be surprised.

The Intel IGC should run EU2, Victoria, MTW, Civ3, Simcity4, the Sims. If, at the rate I play, I cant get well over a year of gameplay out of those games I will be SORELY disappointed, and NOT in my machine. To the point where it might make sense to give up the damned hobby. (this is not to mention the OTHER games id want to play - RPG's, adventures, RTS, warhistorical games, etc - or the fact that Im just getting my feet wet in Moo2, and havent yet played MoM, Starcraft, TOAW, etc)

Really, by the time Im ready to play COTN or RTW, let alone Civ4, I think I can make the case for yet ANOTHER new PC Maybe I'll get a discrete video card for THAT one

	08-12-2004 10:28									#28
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cheap pre-built PC's

	08-12-2004 15:15									#29
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark The Intel IGC should run EU2, Victoria, MTW, Civ3, Simcity4, the Sims. If, at the rate I play, I cant get well over a year of gameplay out of those games I will be SORELY disappointed, and NOT in my machine. To the point where it might make sense to give up the damned hobby. (this is not to mention the OTHER games id want to play - RPG's, adventures, RTS, warhistorical games, etc - or the fact that Im just getting my feet wet in Moo2, and havent yet played MoM, Starcraft, TOAW, etc) Really, by the time Im ready to play COTN or RTW, let alone Civ4, I think I can make the case for yet ANOTHER new PC Maybe I'll get a discrete video card for THAT one

My scepticism isn't just about that (though I think you'll have trouble with some games you try). I just don't like those systems..........my mate bought one, and the RAM went. I identified the problem easily but it was near impossible to fix it without sending the machine back. I finally managed it, but it took much more time than it should have (a 15 minute job tops).

	08-12-2004 15:38									#30
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yes thats true - at work we always have many more problems trying to fix pc's ourselves when the pc's are of the named branded type and or have onboard componants.