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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:17
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and the angels, yankees, and cards didnt have as much heart and chemistry. remember when you were up 3- 0 in the ALCS? can a computer put together a team that will come back from that deficit, who have the heart and chemistry to do it? i dont think so. |
The 2004 Boston Red Sox were a superior team to the 2004 New York Yankees - and that was widely known GOING INTO THAT SERIES! The surprise wasn't really the Sox winning (historically surprising, but not if you're a stats guy!), but that they were ever down 0-3! In the end the best stats team won!
The Angels were really hurt by injuries and also the suspension to their dickwad outfielder (name escapes me) who was nonetheless one of their better players. And they did attempt an epic comeback (Vlad's grand slam), but I guess that shows no heart at all.
The Cards... hell, aside from their known weakness: lack of dominant starting pitching, I'm not really sure what happened there. But some odd things can happen in 4 games.
...
There *is* something to the issue of Boston players feeling bitter when they leave. Both Duquette and now to a degree Epstein have done some things to alienate players. That's something to work on.
Having said that, Pedro's a ****in' diva, man! Ultimately, he wanted "respect" he doesn't warrant. He's gotten a shitload of respect from that organization over the years, and now they're a bit wary of his long-term health so he feels betrayed or something? You gotta be kiddin' me.
-Arrian
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:17
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How did the ego get so big on players on that team? Millar getting a big head is just ridiculous. I don't know where he gets off. Maybe if he played better defense, Mienky wouldn't have had to be brought in. |
Absolutely agreed. Millar is a streaky hitter who mashes lefties (IIRC), but is nearly useless in the field. He's not NEARLY a good enough hitter to be the DH, and besides, Ortiz has that locked up. So where does he play? RF if Nixon's hurt, but if not, Nixon's better. 1b, unless somebody actually qualified for the position can (Man-Cave-Itch isn't exactly a slugger, but his defense is SO much better, and he's a lefty...). This makes Millar a 4th outfielder/bench player. Which is EXACTLY what he should be.
Winning that WS up in Boston is what did it, though, Imran. These guys are like Gods right now. Which is kinda cool, good for them & Boston, but the F.O. has a mess on its hands.
-Arrian
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Lawrence of Arabia
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of the Gulag Archipelago
Apr 2001
time: 06:17
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http://www.boston.com/sports/baseba...17/rising_star/
thats an article on hanley ramirez. seems like hes got some maturing to do, but in 2 - 3 years, he should be ready to go.
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Work ethic leads to heart. What do you think heart is?
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heart is turning around a bad season, turning around a bad stretch of games, coming back from an 0-3 deficit. work ethics MAY in some cases lead to heart, but not always. heart doesnt come from anywhere in many cases, you either have it or you dont, and it cant be measured until youre in a tight spot. to get a team together that has heart is a hard thing to do and is overlooked today, especially by moneyballers.
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Actually it was more like 2 games. That isn't crashing and burning, it's just the way the season works. |
comon, you should know this state boy. there have been very very very few teams in first place on sept 1 who have not gone to the playoffs over the history of MLB. thats crashing and burning
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Thanks for making my point for me |
no, it made my point. it had everything to do with cabrera. he was the guy who put us into the playoffs.
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LoA: Oh, AND you keep hyping Youklis. Who do you think is the James/Beane/Moneyball prototype? The guy walks a ton and is what Bill James is about. If he suceeds, so does the statistical analysis you like to decry.
LoA: Oh, AND you keep hyping Youklis. Who do you think is the James/Beane/Moneyball prototype? The guy walks a ton and is what Bill James is about. If he suceeds, so does the statistical analysis you like to decry.
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what does this hav to do with heart? he will be a great player, but does he have heart, and does he get along with everyone else in the clubhouse? you dont know that.
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The 2004 Boston Red Sox were a superior team to the 2004 New York Yankees - and that was widely known GOING INTO THAT SERIES! The surprise wasn't really the Sox winning (historically surprising, but not if you're a stats guy!), but that they were ever down 0-3! In the end the best stats team won!
The Angels were really hurt by injuries and also the suspension to their dickwad outfielder (name escapes me) who was nonetheless one of their better players. And they did attempt an epic comeback (Vlad's grand slam), but I guess that shows no heart at all.
The Cards... hell, aside from their known weakness: lack of dominant starting pitching, I'm not really sure what happened there. But some odd things can happen in 4 games.
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sure, those teams showed some heart, but not as much as the sox, who rebounded from a grandslam to win it. how many teams do that? not many. those teams did have a certain amount of heart, but NOT AS MUCH as the sox. angels were not able to come back from suspension of a good player (Jose Guillen) didnt you read what i said? i said didnt show as much heart as the sox. you guys are so foaming at the mouth to jump over me that youre forgetting to read.
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Having said that, Pedro's a ****in' diva, man! Ultimately, he wanted "respect" he doesn't warrant. He's gotten a shitload of respect from that organization over the years, and now they're a bit wary of his long-term health so he feels betrayed or something? You gotta be kiddin' me.
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i agree, in this new interview he just sounds like a whiner.
cmon imran, you gotta try harder. your arguments are falling flat. i need some entertainment
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:17
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he will be a great player, but does he have heart, and does he get along with everyone else in the clubhouse? you dont know that. |
Neither does anyone who makes a deal or signs a FA. Chemistry is a fickle thing that you can't trade for or sign. You won't know if chemistry works until everyone is together. How do you build a team for chemistry if you don't know if people click until they get on the same team?
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sure, those teams showed some heart, but not as much as the sox |
First it was these teams have no heart. Then it was they don't have as much heart... make up your mind.
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it had everything to do with cabrera. he was the guy who put us into the playoffs. |
That's hilarious. Yeah, forget about Schilling, and Manny, and Ortiz, and Nixon coming back, and Millar, and Mueller... it was alllll Cabrera!
Oh, and IIRC, you were bemoaning the trade when made while I was saying what a great deal it was because Cabrera was above average and Nomar was a cancer. ANOTHER win for me!
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there have been very very very few teams in first place on sept 1 who have not gone to the playoffs over the history of MLB. thats crashing and burning |
How many? Out of how many? And what was their lead on Sept 1? How many teams that had a 5 game lead or less didn't make it? Out of how many?
You can't make bald assertions without the STATS to back it up, you dirty liar  .
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cmon imran, you gotta try harder. your arguments are falling flat. i need some entertainment |
You are getting totally schooled by Arrian and me. I don't know what you are sniffing.
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:17
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sure, those teams showed some heart, but not as much as the sox, who rebounded from a grandslam to win it. how many teams do that? not many. those teams did have a certain amount of heart, but NOT AS MUCH as the sox. angels were not able to come back from suspension of a good player (Jose Guillen) didnt you read what i said? i said didnt show as much heart as the sox. you guys are so foaming at the mouth to jump over me that youre forgetting to read. |
So every team that ever wins wins because they have more heart than the other team, eh?
The Yankees clearly have more heart than the Twins! Oh, wait, they also have over triple the payroll and thus more talent.
The Sox won with TALENT (talent, I might add, that was cobbled together by a smart F.O. for 2/3 the cost of the Yankees inferior talent). For the first time I've ever seen, they had a complete package: starting pitching, bullpen, hitting, defense, and even situational baserunning. And so, when placed in those key situations, they could succeed. They could blow teams out in slugfests, they could shut teams out, they could win tight late/extra innings games. They could scratch the tying run off Mariano Rivera when it mattered most. That was TALENT. Heart too, but you need heart just to get to the Majors.
Did the '77 - '78 Yankees have "chemistry" and "heart?" The '86 Mets? Come on.
-Arrian
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Lawrence of Arabia
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of the Gulag Archipelago
Apr 2001
time: 06:17
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Oh, and by the way:
Pedro didn't want to be "in Shilling's shadow"
Millar wants Man-Cave-Itch traded.
How ABOUT that team chemistry, fellas! I'm feelin' the love!
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well, it lasted just long enough to make the point.
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Winning that WS up in Boston is what did it, though, Imran. These guys are like Gods right now. Which is kinda cool, good for them & Boston, but the F.O. has a mess on its hands.
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yep.
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First it was these teams have no heart. Then it was they don't have as much heart... make up your mind.
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go back and read. i never said those teams had no heart, i said they had less heart.
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That's hilarious. Yeah, forget about Schilling, and Manny, and Ortiz, and Nixon coming back, and Millar, and Mueller... it was alllll Cabrera!
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pretty much. schilling, manny, and ortiz, with spot apperances by mueller led the team to a 10 game above 500 record for 2/3 of the season. as soon as cabrera came on the team, they won like 3/4 of their last games.
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So every team that ever wins wins because they have more heart than the other team, eh?
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Cmon Arrian, youre better than this. I never said ALL teams win because of heart!!!
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he Sox won with TALENT (talent, I might add, that was cobbled together by a smart F.O. for 2/3 the cost of the Yankees inferior talent). For the first time I've ever seen, they had a complete package: starting pitching, bullpen, hitting, defense, and even situational baserunning. And so, when placed in those key situations, they could succeed. They could blow teams out in slugfests, they could shut teams out, they could win tight late/extra innings games. They could scratch the tying run off Mariano Rivera when it mattered most. That was TALENT. Heart too, but you need heart just to get to the Majors.
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and that talent had the team on July 31st as 10 games above .500, who had played .500 ball for the last two months, and were 15 games behind the yanks. it was heart that lead to the comeback, the never say die attitude, and then brought them into the playoffs, where they survived a deflating grandslam whihch woulda sunk most teams, and then survived an 0-3 deficit which sunk every team before them.
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:17
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quote:
and that talent had the team on July 31st as 10 games above .500, who had played .500 ball for the last two months, and were 15 games behind the yanks. |
Some of which was simply bad luck, which happens to all teams. Some of which may have been some bad managing by Francona. Some of which was due to poor defense.
You talk as if it was instant success once Cabrera showed up. It wasn't, IIRC. At first, nothing much happened. But about a week or two in, they really caught fire. Now you believe that's because of "chemistry" and "heart." Fine, sure, whatever.
I distinctly recall that, at the time of the Sox's malaise, I brought up the "Pythagorean Standings." These showed that the Sox were something like 10 games under where they "should" have been based on their runs for/against. This, according to we stat heads, is attributable mainly to luck. The Yankees, meanwhile were +10 or more.
Here are the final Pythagorean standings for the AL East:
Boston 98-64 98-64 0
NY Yankees 89-73 101-61 +12
Boston ended up breaking even - they had exactly the record they "should" have had based on their run scoring & run prevention. The Yankees, meanwhile, overperformed by 12 games (TWELVE! Holy crap). To me, this indicates that the Sox had been due for some better luck, and they got it. The Yanks, somehow, remained lucky as all hell. Was that chemistry & heart? Kevin Brown punching the wall, Giambi out due to steroid-related health problems (by the way - you were absolutely right there, kudos), Vasquez being a little *****... etc.
-Arrian
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:17
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Look, ultimately, putting together the best baseball team you can has everything to do with mixing & matching players with various talents. There are general truths (OBP good, SLG good, speed good, etc), but teams have to be multi-dimensional, so you need a mixture of players. That's not "chemistry" mind you. It's a mix of TALENT.
Cabrera, as nice & fun a guy as he may be, has certain talents. Among them:
Good defense
Decent speed
Decent batting average
He also has weaknesses:
Lowish OBP, due to lack of patience
Little power
Those drawbacks, however, are ok on the Red Sox, because the Red Sox already had a shitload of patience and power, but were lacking speed & defense. He fit in to the talent mixture and did make them better (and again, a lot of it has to do with replacing a SS who wasn't playing very much, forcing the Sox to use a platoon 2b - Pokey - at SS).
Edit: but their resurgance wasn't just about him, anyway. Nixon came back from injury. Man-Cave-Itch could play 1b, allowing greater lineup flexibility. Was it also around that time that Foulke came out of his funk (he had that one hiccup period when he blew a bunch of saves ... most closers do)?
-Arrian
Last edited by Arrian on 18-12-2004 at 01:27
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17-12-2004 23:55
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