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Lawrence of Arabia
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of the Gulag Archipelago
Apr 2001
time: 06:17
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heres the problem thats happeneing in baseball today, and especially the sox. theo, bill james, imran siddiqui, all look at numbers too much and have human element in it. they dont care about clubhouse chemistry. they sign players because they got the most win share/ million dollars spent. they treat the players like pieces of a machine and end up mistreating them. is there any doubt that if the 04 red sox had been different then they were, they wouldnt have come back down 0-3. you cannot find chemistry in the computer, no matter how you try.
this blantant use of computers means that everyone who leaves beantown feels mistreated. the sox didnt even invited derek lowe to the red sox get together a couple days ago. what is that? sure you dont want him back, but theres no need to treat him like trash. this word gets around the league and athletes are less likely to sign with the sox.
which is why i dont understand why this FO is breaking the team apart. there was nothing broken, i dont see why we need to change it. we should have immediatly resigned pedro and cabrera and varitek because of the clubhouse presense (hold off on varitek till boras gets his demands down.) is there any doubt that it was personanlity, not win shares, or OPS which was the deciding factor in why the sox were as resilient as they were and why they won the series? since you cant argue with that, i dont see why we would replace any of the team (besides lowe whose asking way too much, and players who want to leave so they can play fulltime.)
spit your statistcs as much asyou want, when it comes down to it, its personality and chemistry that wins games. trust me, im an athlete, i know.
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:17
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quote:
I think his business would be irrevocably hurt by pulling out of the Bronx. The Yankees are built on TRADITION. Leave the Bronx for Long Island, or Jersey, and you destroy that tradition. If Steinbrenner thinks the hard core Yankee fans will stick the team if it ever moves, even if just outside the city, then he is a fool. |
If you think Yankee fans would abandon the team and not go to games if he left for greener pastures then you are a fool. Tradition of a crumbling stadium in the Bronx wouldn't matter a whit as soon as the super-incredible park was first seen. You think Red Sox fans will abandon the team after the New Fenway is built? Not a chance.
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theo, bill james, imran siddiqui, all look at numbers too much and have human element in it. they dont care about clubhouse chemistry. |
Hmmm.. chemistry and "traditional baseball" - 86 years of failure.
2 years of statistics and numbers - World Series bliss
I'll take the later, thanks  .
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we should have immediatly resigned pedro and cabrera and varitek because of the clubhouse presense |
Pedro for 4 guarenteed years is a mistake (wait until his arm falls off). Cabrera wasn't in the mix in the beginning of the year when the Sox were rolling, so he wasn't integral to any 'chemistry'. Varitek, they'll eventually get him, when the price falls when no one will pay his ransom.
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Lawrence of Arabia
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of the Gulag Archipelago
Apr 2001
time: 06:17
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quote:
Hmmm.. chemistry and "traditional baseball" - 86 years of failure.
2 years of statistics and numbers - World Series bliss
I'll take the later, thanks |
you know and i know why they failed for 86 years. besides 46, the opposing teams all had better pitching. simple as that. we always tried to hit our way to a title and it never worked.
2 years of statistics worked a little, but there is no statistic on how a team will respond down 0-3. if that team had no chemistry and woulda given up, then no title. your statistics brought them some of the way, but its always chemistry and teamwork that brings them the rest, which is why we should keep this team togther. computers can never calculate heart and never-say-die attitude
pedro said, if the sox had guaranteed 3 years last week, he woulda taken it. but instead they wanted to nickle and dime him.
as for cabrera, as soon as they got him, they went on a huge winning streak. if you wathced in the clbhouse, him and manny got on famously. his acquisition turned the sox around.
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You're out of your damn mind. Randy Johnson is THE best pitcher in baseball, even at his age.
EDIT - Xpost with Imran, I'm speaking to LoA.
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randy will be a good pitcher for two more years max. dioner navarro will be a great catcher for the next 10. d-backs and dodgers made out like bandits in this deal
(btw, Brazoban, another phenomenal pitcher, was also a yankee who they traded for, yes, KEVIN BROWN. everyone raved how that was such a great move, i knew it was crap, and look whos right again. kevin brown has been a full blown bust, and yhency will be a great pitcher. you never ever mortgage your teams future for now, especially when half your team is liable to fall apart from too much steroids use, when you've got your highest paid player breaking out his bush league moves, and all your intangibles consist of money money money mooooney)
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:17
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quote:
2 years of statistics worked a little, but there is no statistic on how a team will respond down 0-3. if that team had no chemistry and woulda given up, then no title. your statistics brought them some of the way, but its always chemistry and teamwork that brings them the rest, which is why we should keep this team togther. computers can never calculate heart and never-say-die attitude |
The Red Sox did have heart, but usually those players who have high OBP and aren't the great average guys (ie, the Jamesian, Moneyball guys) are those that have heart because, since OBP is such an underrated stat, they've had to fight to get where they are... and to get a high OBP, a lot of times you have to fight the pitcher (fouling off pitches).
Oakland has been a pretty chippy team as well.
And so far Moneyball has worked. Oakland just barely missed the playoffs for the first time in years while being near the bottom in payroll with Billy Beane at the helm. The Dodgers with Paul DePodesta (the one you say is fleecing the Yanks) built LA into NL West champs for the first time in years. And in Boston, Theo Epstein freaking WON THE WORLD SERIES FOR THE RED SOX!
The only one who isn't doing that good is J.P. Riccardi in Toronto.
3 out of 4 ain't bad.
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pedro said, if the sox had guaranteed 3 years last week, he woulda taken it. but instead they wanted to nickle and dime him. |
Yeah, he SAYS... why should I believe him? It was all about money. He had no loyalty, why should the Sox?
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as for cabrera, as soon as they got him, they went on a huge winning streak. if you wathced in the clbhouse, him and manny got on famously. his acquisition turned the sox around. |
No, it was after they got rid of Nomar, they went on a tear. Look at the season. Before Nomar came back and after he was dealt, the Sox were amazing. Remember, they were #1 in the league before Nomar came back from injury.
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Lawrence of Arabia
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of the Gulag Archipelago
Apr 2001
time: 06:17
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quote:
The Red Sox did have heart, but usually those players who have high OBP and aren't the great average guys (ie, the Jamesian, Moneyball guys) are those that have heart because, since OBP is such an underrated stat, they've had to fight to get where they are... and to get a high OBP, a lot of times you have to fight the pitcher (fouling off pitches).
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what? bonds doesnt have any heart. i dont know how you can say this. theres no evidence that OBP guys have more heart than the usual player.
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Oakland has been a pretty chippy team as well.
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not in 04 when they crashed and burned in september. and they are all obp guys.
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Yeah, he SAYS... why should I believe him? It was all about money. He had no loyalty, why should the Sox?
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why shouldnt we? innocent before guilty. i havnt seen him lie.
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No, it was after they got rid of Nomar, they went on a tear. Look at the season. Before Nomar came back and after he was dealt, the Sox were amazing. Remember, they were #1 in the league before Nomar came back from injury. |
the sox always start fast. nomar wasnt a clubhouse guy, which is why things fell apart. too much tension, too much stress. cabrera was a clubhouse guy who not only brought in leather, also buyed into the entire clubhouse feel (remember nomar never shaved his head in 03 when we cowboyed up) if cabrera doesnt buy in, then we have another nomar situation. bill james couldnt tell you that he would fit in. it just happened.
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:17
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theo, bill james, imran siddiqui, all look at numbers too much and have human element in it. they dont care about clubhouse chemistry. |
I cannot ****ing believe you made this argument without laughing so hard at yourself that your typing was all messed up. 
NEWSFLASH: Theo, Bill James (who has a minor roll), et al. put together a team that won the World Series. And they went through some excellent teams to do it (each had flaws, certainly, but the Angels, Yankees and Cardinals were all very stong teams).
This silly sentimental bullshit about "chemistry" is the reason some teams never seem to get their **** together. Chemistry comes from WINNING. And seriously, who gives a flying **** about great chemistry on a losing team? Hell, if my team is getting smacked around consistently, I'm not really sure I WANT them to be all happy-go-lucky about it!
Nomar got traded for 3 reasons:
1) He was hurt, and because of that his defensive abilities had gone to ****.
2) He indicated he might not play a whole lot down the stretch. Whether that was injury or "injury" isn't particularly relevant. There's no point in having a SS who is gonna play 60-70% of your games, when you can have another guy play them all, provided that "other guy" is pretty good. Cabrera is pretty good.
3) Discontent. Yeah, I'm sure it played a roll.
Theo understood that the Sox's defense was hurting them. It wasn't quite as bad as it looked there for a while, but it definitely hurt them. And I think it had gotten into people's heads (especially some of the pitchers - Derek Lowe being a key example). Thus, change had to be made. He did the smart thing.
But yeah, he's a fool who only looks at numbers. Ya gotta feel that love up there in Boston!
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trust me, im an athlete, i know. |
You see a tree or two. Theo sees a forest.
-Arrian
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
quote:
I think his business would be irrevocably hurt by pulling out of the Bronx. The Yankees are built on TRADITION. Leave the Bronx for Long Island, or Jersey, and you destroy that tradition. If Steinbrenner thinks the hard core Yankee fans will stick the team if it ever moves, even if just outside the city, then he is a fool. |
If you think Yankee fans would abandon the team and not go to games if he left for greener pastures then you are a fool. Tradition of a crumbling stadium in the Bronx wouldn't matter a whit as soon as the super-incredible park was first seen. You think Red Sox fans will abandon the team after the New Fenway is built? Not a chance.
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The most ardent Yankee fans, the Bleacher Bums, the guys who come by subway to sit out there exposed and see a Yankee game-they are not all of a sudden going to get on a car and drive to Nassau to sit in some modern monstrosity of a park-which won't be in New York City because the public won't stand for it (Mets fans are going to shell out their tax dollars for Steinbrenner). Besides, I assume New Fenway remains in Boston. Steinbrenner is not going to get a new stadium out of NYC, so he would need to move out. Hard to be the Bronx Bombers in nassau or bergen counties.
Besides, there are no Greener pastures. There is a reason why the Jets are trying to get back into NYC after thinking of the greener pastures of Jersey, or why the Nets are moving to Brooklyn.
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Lawrence of Arabia
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of the Gulag Archipelago
Apr 2001
time: 06:17
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quote:
NEWSFLASH: Theo, Bill James (who has a minor roll), et al. put together a team that won the World Series. And they went through some excellent teams to do it (each had flaws, certainly, but the Angels, Yankees and Cardinals were all very stong teams).
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and the angels, yankees, and cards didnt have as much heart and chemistry. remember when you were up 3- 0 in the ALCS? can a computer put together a team that will come back from that deficit, who have the heart and chemistry to do it? i dont think so.
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This silly sentimental bullshit about "chemistry" is the reason some teams never seem to get their **** together. Chemistry comes from WINNING. And seriously, who gives a flying **** about great chemistry on a losing team? Hell, if my team is getting smacked around consistently, I'm not really sure I WANT them to be all happy-go-lucky about it!
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good chemistry can make a bad team good (look at panthers and all their injuries, thats heart) and can make a good team great (red sox) it can put you over the top or it can sink you if you dont have it and fold at the first sign of adversity.
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Theo understood that the Sox's defense was hurting them. It wasn't quite as bad as it looked there for a while, but it definitely hurt them. And I think it had gotten into people's heads (especially some of the pitchers - Derek Lowe being a key example). Thus, change had to be made. He did the smart thing.
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and if he brings in someone who isnt a good clubhouse guy, nothing will have changed, since there will still be that negativity hanging around, putting doubt into other players minds.
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You see a tree or two. Theo sees a forest.
You see a tree or two. Theo sees a forest.
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theo doesnt see the forest. he only sees pages of numbers.
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Good to see Pedro making a gracious exit...
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you guys arnd seeing it. theres a trend here and the trend is that the team doesnt treat its members well as they leave. everyone whose left has always been mistreated (rocket, denis eckersley etc) and this is just more of this. the word gets around the league
look at how the FO smeared nomar when they traded him. there was no need for that. the FO arnt people oriented (why should they, they look at computers all day and have no people skills) and then no one wants to come play for us. its a trend and that needs to change
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17-12-2004 03:13
How does he leave the TV market by going to New Jersey or Long Island? You don't think that the New York media will be just as obsessed with the Yanks? You don't think YES Network will still be a force? Yer loony.
But remember, they just look at stats and therefore they actually suck.
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