13-12-2004 23:36									#31
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I would argue that stability is the key. A stable one-parent home therefore trumps (IMO) an unstable/unhappy two-parent home. But obviously the best situation is a happy 2-parent home.

quote: That assumes sex ought to be used for the purposes of creating children, Speer.

[low blow]Yeah, I'm sure those priests were trying to create children with their choir boys[/low blow]

-Arrian

	13-12-2004 23:47									#32
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quote: How about an argument that no children are better than one when those are single inevitably decide to have premarital sex?

Inevitable? I challenge that assertion.

	13-12-2004 23:49									#33
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Go ahead challenge it. People are going to have premarital sex, no matter how much you try to put a cap on it. It's inevitable. Look at Arrian's stats for how many 'abstinence pleadge' people, who should be most against premarital sex violate their pledge.

	13-12-2004 23:50									#34
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quote: According to the same people (who promote Sex after marriage) Sex Ed of Teenagers is evil, as teenagers who have detailed knowledge about their sexuality (and contraceptives) are more likely to try it before marriage.

When you hand out condoms, and tell them to use one every time, why shouldn't you anticipate this response?

quote: So no, teaching them before marriage to use contraceptives isnīt an option (you might try it after marriage though [but of course only, if contraception is allowed in your parish ])

Actually, they believe there should be some education, but that education should also teach them that abstinence is to be the first prioirity.

	13-12-2004 23:51									#35
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88% (failure rate of the abstinence pledge) is a big number, Ben. Even if you were to improve on it, it seems rather unlikely that it would ever approach 0. Thus, inevitably there will be premarital sex. Most likely, a LOT of it, like now.

Therefore, if we agree that teenage pregnacy & birth out of wedlock is a bad thing, then it would make sense to teach kids about contraception, in addition to suggesting abstinence.

-Arrian

	13-12-2004 23:51									#36
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quote: Actually, they believe there should be some education, but that education should also teach them that abstinence is to be the first prioirity.

Why? There is nothing wrong with protected sex.

	13-12-2004 23:52									#37
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quote: Go ahead challenge it. People are going to have premarital sex, no matter how much you try to put a cap on it. It's inevitable. Look at Arrian's stats for how many 'abstinence pleadge' people, who should be most against premarital sex violate their pledge.

I don't deny that. However, some pledgers do wait until they are married. To say that everyone who is single will inevitably have sex before marriage is a distortion. It is entirely possible for someone to wait until marriage, regardless of whether her or she succeeds.

	13-12-2004 23:53									#38
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quote: To say that everyone who is single will inevitably have sex before marriage is a distortion.

And where did I say that, Mr. Distortor? I said premartial sex is inevitable. People are going to have it. You can never get that number to zero.

	13-12-2004 23:54									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Proteus_MST According to the same people (who promote Sex after marriage) Sex Ed of Teenagers is evil, as teenagers who have detailed knowledge about their sexuality (and contraceptives) are more likely to try it before marriage.

They say that, but they are wrong. Kids who take proper sex ed delay their first sexual experierence longer than kids who get abstinence only crap.

	13-12-2004 23:56									#40
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quote: Kids who take proper sex ed delay their first sexual experierence longer than kids who get abstinence only crap.

But that is probably do to a "holier than though" haughty attitude of such knee clinching prudes.

	13-12-2004 23:57									#41
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I do know a couple that waited until marriage [i]despite sleeping in the same bed for seveal months before the wedding. They were hardcore catholics, but the lease on one of their apartments ran out a few months before their wedding, and they saw no point in renewing it. Man, I don't know how they handled it.

	13-12-2004 23:57									#42
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Which is better: a realistic, factual knowledge of sex, or idealized ignorance?

-Arrian

	13-12-2004 23:57									#43
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quote: 88% (failure rate of the abstinence pledge) is a big number, Ben. Even if you were to improve on it, it seems rather unlikely that it would ever approach 0. Thus, inevitably there will be premarital sex. Most likely, a LOT of it, like now.

Considering the pressures kids go through to have sex, why would you not expect that rate of success or failure. What this does mean is that 12% succeed in waiting all the way until marriage, which is not something to be mocked.

Perhaps if we put more value to the kids who are willing to sacrifice their present pleasure for future ones, then we shall start to see this rate climb.

quote: Therefore, if we agree that teenage pregnacy & birth out of wedlock is a bad thing, then it would make sense to teach kids about contraception, in addition to suggesting abstinence.

Actually, what is so bad about teenage pregnancy and births out of wedlock?

	13-12-2004 23:58									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Japher But that is probably do to a "holier than though" haughty attitude of such knee clinching prudes.

That makes no sense as a response to what I wrote.

	13-12-2004 23:58									#45
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quote: Which is better: a realistic, factual knowledge of sex, or idealized ignorance?

Everything I learned about sex I learned by watching porn... Which catagory does that fall into?

	13-12-2004 23:59									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Actually, what is so bad about teenage pregnancy and births out of wedlock?

I have no problem with out of wedlock birtsh, but kids shouldn't be having babies. They aren't emotionally, physically, or financially mature enough, even if they are capable.

	14-12-2004 00:00									#47
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Imran:

quote: I said premartial sex is inevitable.

You never specified whether this was for society as a whole, or for each individual. Now that you have, it is much clearer what you meant.

quote: Why? There is nothing wrong with protected sex.

Why should protected sex be good and unprotected sex bad?

	14-12-2004 00:01									#48
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun There will be some Apolytoners who will rationally state that all of this is perfectly legal, as producers, television stations, and so forth can all legally choose what they want to show or present.

That's not the issue. The issue is that theoretically this is regulated by the FCC, and it seems to be part of the problem.

quote: But they often ignore or are not aware of the fact that what is technically legal is not necessarily right or just.

We don't care. Were this cable, I'd have no problem, because it's definately LESS just to compell the company to run ads or shows they don't want to run.

	14-12-2004 00:01									#49
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Ben,

I repeat: that number can be improved, but you cannot seriously contend that it will ever approach zero. Even if it declines to 25%, there will still be a LOT of premarital sex.

quote: Actually, what is so bad about teenage pregnancy and births out of wedlock?

I was talking to Speer, who contends that a 2-parent home is best for raising kids.

I actually tend to agree with that, subject to the caveats I mentioned. Second, teenage pregnancy is generally bad because most teenage moms aren't ready for the responsibility of motherhood. Most, not all. I'm sure there are a few glowing exceptions.

-Arrian

	14-12-2004 00:01									#50
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protected sex = fun
unprotected sex = babies and disease, both of which are bad things.

	14-12-2004 00:01									#51
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quote: They aren't emotionally, physically, or financially mature enough, even if they are capable.

So why then are they mature enough to be having sex in the first place?

	14-12-2004 00:02									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer the context of a marriage allows us to assume a certain level of compatibility and permanence between the two individuals; a security that assures society that the children that will possibly be conceived through the sex act will grow up in stable homes.

Surely you're not this naive.

	14-12-2004 00:02									#53
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quote: unprotected sex = babies and disease, both of which are bad things.

Babies are bad?

	14-12-2004 00:03									#54
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quote: Why should protected sex be good and unprotected sex bad?

Unprotected sex is only bad if you don't want to or can't take care of a child. And it's bad then, because there is a good chance that they may have a child that they don't want.

With proper protection the chances of getting an unwanted child are less than 1%.

	14-12-2004 00:04									#55
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quote: I repeat: that number can be improved, but you cannot seriously contend that it will ever approach zero. Even if it declines to 25%, there will still be a LOT of premarital sex

I concede this. Always has been, and always will be. Still doesn't change the point that we should be putting more pressure on kids to grow up quickly, or letting them be kids for just awhile longer.

	14-12-2004 00:05									#56
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quote: So why then are they mature enough to be having sex in the first place?

Sex doesn't involve taking care of another person for over 16 years .

	14-12-2004 00:06									#57
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quote: With proper protection the chances of getting an unwanted child are less than 1%.

Right, in ideal, laboratory tested conditions.

Real life tends to be a little less ideal though.

	14-12-2004 00:06									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Babies are bad?

Very bad. Babies are dirty, slimy, disease ridden moochers who contribute nothing to society and present an enourmous drain on our resources. Babies should be abolished. Mandatory abortions for everyone.

	14-12-2004 00:07									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So why then are they mature enough to be having sex in the first place?

Because raging hormones based on millions of years of evolution are telling them, do it, do it, do it!

I think teenagers are capable of being adult enough to have kids (as they did for most of human history, the whole notion of teenager being a modern conception) except that our current society does not really let them (having defined adult upwards). So, the wise public policy is teaching teenagers how to handle sex, as opposed to Pollyana notion that they can just say no. The same policy failed with drugs, and the best course is to educate.

	14-12-2004 00:07									#60
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quote: Sex doesn't involve taking care of another person for over 16 years

No, it's even more than that! What about taking care of your partner?