08-01-2005 03:46									#31
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He means that although killing SS won't balance the budget, killing all forms of wealth transfer/welfare/etc certainly would.

And, because DF is a hardcore Libertarian, he's all for that.

-Arrian

	08-01-2005 03:52									#32
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He probably thinks that most all spending is welfare, but most of the programs that most people call welfare really don't cost that much.

	08-01-2005 03:54									#33
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Although, in fairness, ending Social Security and other similar welfare programs WOULD probably balance the budget, in spite of tax cuts

only ending SS and keeping the tax would do that. Ending both would leave the government with a slight shortfall now, but ultimately keep it from swinging massively negative later on.

If on the other hand you mean all of non-discretionary spending, then yea, that would just about cover it, and make it possible to bring the US back into the black in less then 20 years.

	08-01-2005 04:09									#34
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Government spending as a share of GDP does keep going up in the US, and in fact in most of the world. That's a good sign that free market economics is really just fading away. No wonder these studies don't consider taxes anymore.

Last edited by Kidicious on 08-01-2005 at 04:17

	08-01-2005 04:17									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha If on the other hand you mean all of non-discretionary spending, then yea, that would just about cover it, and make it possible to bring the US back into the black in less then 20 years.

Non-discretionary or discretionary?

	08-01-2005 21:09									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious When are people going to stop thinking that freer is better. Obviously a totally free market would fail miserably. It's nonsense.

But a free market does not mean it's free from regulations. It means companies should be able to freely enter the market and to compete inside.

Laissez-faire doesn't guarantee that, you need government regulations to keep a level playing field.

	08-01-2005 21:38									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Non-discretionary or discretionary?

if we were to cut discretionary spending that would just about cover the real size of the deficit, for this year atleast. but the big one is non-discretionary spending.
any proportional cut would take most of its pound of flesh out of that one.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2004/tables.html

table 2.

	08-01-2005 21:41									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I don't care if you call SS welfare. It doesn't bother me.

Which is why you had to point that out.

	08-01-2005 22:17									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger But a free market does not mean it's free from regulations.

You can't really believe that. The people who support it want smaller government and less regulation.

	08-01-2005 22:19									#40
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NOBODY HAS MENTIONED THAT ONE PARTY CONTROLS ALL THREE BRANCHES OF THE GOVERNMENT...

REPUBLICANS ARE MAKING AMERICA LESS FREE!!!

	08-01-2005 22:46									#41
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I always wonder why right winged people get more angered by even the sligest welfare or social security spending then by the massive military spending. Just bringing all troops outside the USA home could dramatically reduce spending(much more then ending social security would do what is MAKING money at the moment). Every american and especially the rich ones are paying tons of money for the military, no mather whatever they like what it does or not they have to pay for it.

Ending some very expensive military research projects with little practical use(Rumsfeld his pet projects) could reduce spending even more.

This army uses "stop loss" something what goes right againsts the very basic principles of capitalism : people are FREE to work for whoever they want and nobody can be forced to work beyond the terms of his contract.

People who want a more free economy and less spending should focus more on one of the biggest state run organizations of the US, one that has no respect for the way capitalism works: the army!

	08-01-2005 22:48									#42
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post more often kolpo

	09-01-2005 01:15									#43
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The military creates a lot of jobs for untrained people. Your capitalism wouldn't work too well without all the spending that goes to the military.

	09-01-2005 01:16									#44
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quote: Originally posted by kolpo I always wonder why right winged people get more angered by even the sligest welfare or social security spending then by the massive military spending. Just bringing all troops outside the USA home could dramatically reduce spending(much more then ending social security would do what is MAKING money at the moment). Every american and especially the rich ones are paying tons of money for the military, no mather whatever they like what it does or not they have to pay for it. Ending some very expensive military research projects with little practical use(Rumsfeld his pet projects) could reduce spending even more. This army uses "stop loss" something what goes right againsts the very basic principles of capitalism : people are FREE to work for whoever they want and nobody can be forced to work beyond the terms of his contract. People who want a more free economy and less spending should focus more on one of the biggest state run organizations of the US, one that has no respect for the way capitalism works: the army!

slight = 1.2-1.4 trillion
massive = 360-400 billion

I agree that all spending can and should be cut, but there is only so much blood that you will be able to squeeze out of the discretionary spending stone.

	09-01-2005 02:12									#45
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quote: slight = 1.2-1.4 trillion

What does that include?

	09-01-2005 02:23									#46
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Should I get my gives a **** fixed for this?

	09-01-2005 02:32									#47
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Give it a couple of years

You mean, give it 40 years.

	09-01-2005 02:37									#48
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Social Security is running a surplus and will continue to do so for at least 30-40 more years- after that, given that is it based ona dedicated tax, the outlays from the general budget would not be particulalry large to keep it afloat- as it is SS can continue indefenitely without any real advserse effect on the budget.

The real problems budgetwise: 1. Debt- not only external debt, but the huge amounts that were borrowed from the huge SS surplus to finance other parts of the government, or allow for tax cuts. Of course, the government could default on these bonds and screw the public pension system- but I doubt that international markets would like the US defaulting on a huge chunck of its bonds- not good for business if the US decides its word isn;t worth spit when it comes to bond holders.
2. Medicare- costs of healthcare are skyrocketing, and this shows nbo sign of stopping at all.

	09-01-2005 06:39									#49
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Cut military spending and welfare

	09-01-2005 06:50									#50
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SS is running a surplus because the polticians are "skimming" ~%15 from a large chunk of wage/income in this country. So dont complain about regressive taxes and poor people then extol the virtues of a Ponzi scheme that would be illegal in the private sector.

	09-01-2005 11:40									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You can't really believe that. The people who support it want smaller government and less regulation.

That's what a free market ought to be. As I said before, even neoclassicists hold that it is necessary to have government regulations because of monopolies and cartels.

	09-01-2005 11:47									#52
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Much of government intervention seems to be to maintain cartels rather than to demolish them.

	09-01-2005 16:45									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Government spending as a share of GDP does keep going up in the US, and in fact in most of the world. That's a good sign that free market economics is really just fading away. No wonder these studies don't consider taxes anymore.

This study *does* include tax, look at "Financial Burden". That is about the tax rate and the amount of GDP the government controls. That's why HK is top, having a 2 for that, whereas the UK and other EU countries get nearer 4s.

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger But a free market does not mean it's free from regulations. It means companies should be able to freely enter the market and to compete inside. Laissez-faire doesn't guarantee that, you need government regulations to keep a level playing field.

Actually this study counts monopoly control and regulation of natural monopolies as anti-free. In this study, a free market does mean free from regulations, as much as possible.

	09-01-2005 17:56									#54
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There is restructuring of the military (much needed, since a lot of the spending is for cold-war era doctrine programs.. it has saved the Pentagon $60 billion I believe). Furthermore, welfare must be reduced to a minimum. It could save this country billions. We must kick out immigrants who don't deserve to be here, those who are here illegally sucking up the resources of the citizens.

It seems like people such as Gepap don't really understand too well the concepts. The US is a creditor nation moreso, and it wouldn't be in the interests for other nations to call in debt (shooting themselves in the feet).

"costs of healthcare are skyrocketing"

Two words: Tort Reform.

That is something the great president Bush is pushing. We need it passed.

	09-01-2005 17:58									#55
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quote: We must kick out immigrants who don't deserve to be here

	09-01-2005 18:00									#56
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Again do something smart for a change, azazel.

	09-01-2005 18:07									#57
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I am doing the smart thing.

	09-01-2005 18:09									#58
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No you aren't. YOu are just spamming.

	09-01-2005 18:20									#59
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possible. geez, lighten up.

Anyhow, what's with the immigrant-hating, Giancarlo? Immigrants, such as your parents, too, I suppose, have built that country.

	09-01-2005 19:34									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Anyhow, what's with the immigrant-hating, Giancarlo? Immigrants, such as your parents, too, I suppose, have built that country.

And look where that's gotten us. We're stuck with Fez because of it.