10-01-2005 17:49									#91
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Agathon I have an excellent solution to America's problems. Find every person who has ever voted Republican and make it illegal for them to ever vote again. Either that or shoot them. Problems solved.

This is how commies solve there problems. Mass purges and mass murder. You show your true colors, agathon.

	10-01-2005 18:43									#92
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Problem with this: They are not legal and do not have documentation. And often they are sucking up welfare. Example: California. You are full of crap.

The problem, Skippy, is if they are not legal and do not have doicumentation, they can't collect welfare. Documentation is welfare requirement #1. California's problem is not welfare but social services, especially emergency room and clinic services.

But here's the thing: nobody swims the Rio Grande for emergency room services. The swim for one thing and one thing only: work. Of course, work should require documentation, too. So how do they get it? By working for employers who pay them off the books, under the table. Employers who pay them less that the minimum wage, because their workers can't call the cops. Employers who don't provide insurance, don't kick into social security, and just generally ignore every law an employer is supposed to obey.

Those employers ain't the government, Skippy; they're good old-fashioned American capitalists, of the sort you profess to admire.

	10-01-2005 18:46									#93
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Well, if you do what California does you just give them a free ride. But your problem Rufus is you are a liar and are wrong. Call me by my real name. Mr Liar.

	10-01-2005 18:49									#94
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Stefu Oh, you wouldn't want to be below Denmark - what with all the roasted pork they eat straight out of bag it would be very uncomfortable, and with their porn addiction who knows what they'd get in their heads...

Pork and Porn, what's not to like?

	10-01-2005 18:53									#95
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by GePap First of all, in a Ponzi scheme the people who get in early make a lot, and with time people who get in latrer get less and less and the system is not sustainable- in SS, people get the pension and will continue to get it indefinitely, even if in 30-40 years money for this will have to be taken out of the General fund, that or raise payroll taxes. Its not a POnzi scheme, and it will keep on chugging.

That sounds more like a pyramid scheme.

We have to move to a system which is capitalized on a per capita basis rather than constantly having to adjust for these huge swings in revenue. It does us no good to give the government surplus funds with which to create constituencies which they will have great difficulty sustaining, and it does us no good to have to raise taxes through the roof in order to maintain a poorly thought out retirement system. It's simply bad for our economy in general as well as for the personal economies of those who are going to have to pay for 50% of a retirees benefits out of their own wages. How the hell can the average person possible afford that?

	10-01-2005 20:01									#96
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Well, if you do what California does you just give them a free ride. But your problem Rufus is you are a liar and are wrong. Call me by my real name. Mr Liar.

Bad sport, Fez. That's 24 hours for you.

	10-01-2005 23:16									#97
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

For calling someone a liar? He does ten times worse every day.

	10-01-2005 23:20									#98
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Sava You mean its stealing if I refuse to participate in Social Security? Oh yeah, liberals think the rest of us exist to pay for what they want...kinda like small children in a candy store...

People who want to recieve something when they retire from working for you are the children?!

	11-01-2005 00:47									#99
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I think it has a whole lot to do with socialism. Taxes are a way to make individuals and firms responsible to society as opposed to themselves.

At least you and I agree that taxation is central to socialism. When I charge the likes of Kerry et al. as being socialists, central to that charge is their class warfare dialog and impetus for raising taxes on the higher income levels and lowering them on lower income levels.

The object of socialism is to bring economic equality. Taxation has to be central to achieving that objective.

	11-01-2005 01:32									#100
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Dammit, they can't even spell Libya right

Labia?

On a sad side note a friend of mine just e-mailed me a URL for a place which offers "Labia Stretching". Funny as hell.

	11-01-2005 01:47									#101
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Sikander That sounds more like a pyramid scheme.

It sounds like any other government program from education to road construction. I.E. current taxes pay for government expenditures.

	11-01-2005 01:56									#102
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Ned At least you and I agree that taxation is central to socialism.

Taxation is central to every government form ever thought up.

	11-01-2005 03:24									#103
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Not quite true. The US government subsisted on land sales for much of the 19th century. Oil revenues form the funding for several governments nowadays. Several governments in the past have subsisted on investments of other types.

Etc.

	11-01-2005 03:29									#104
	Suffering from ads?

I would really be entertained if the US abolished taxes.

	11-01-2005 03:41									#105
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by DanS Not quite true. The US government subsisted on land sales for much of the 19th century. Oil revenues form the funding for several governments nowadays. Several governments in the past have subsisted on investments of other types. Etc.

Not true either. The US government subsisted primarily on tariffs during much of the 19th century, except during the civil war where a broader range of taxes were introduced, many of which weren't repealed after the war.

	11-01-2005 06:41									#106
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by DanS Not quite true. The US government subsisted on land sales for much of the 19th century.

Even if they had (which they didn't, they had other significant sources of funding), it's not sustainable at all. There really is only so much land.

	11-01-2005 07:06									#107
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Taxation is central to every government form ever thought up.

Taxes are an obligation to the politically powerfull. The history of capitalism is a struggle against individual duties to others, specifically kings. Now it's a struggle against duty to society as a whole.

edit: actually, more accurately stated, the origins of individualism is a struggle against the political power of the king.

	11-01-2005 07:12									#108
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by DanS Not quite true. The US government subsisted on land sales for much of the 19th century. Oil revenues form the funding for several governments nowadays. Several governments in the past have subsisted on investments of other types. Etc.

I really think what you are talking about is a type of tax.

	11-01-2005 07:12									#109
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ludd

quote: They also think that they exist to pay for what everyone else wants, too. Those selfish selfless bastards.

I decided I want a SS system? Oh yeah, liberals also decide what everyone else wants and then accuse people of being selfish if they disagree. I wish liberals asked people to pay for what they want, they'd be libertarians then.

Kid

quote: People who want to recieve something when they retire from working for you are the children?!

No, liberals who want other people to pay for what they want are like children in a candy store. I said this quite clearly, why the confusion? And whats that about working for me? The reason most seniors feel entitled to SS is because they've been taxed to pay for the program. The problem is: the politicians they elected to run the program ripped them off and can only pay back what was stolen by stealing from their children and grandchilden.

	11-01-2005 07:44									#110
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

you can certainly opt out of using government services - governments like people like that

You can't however opt out of paying for them

	11-01-2005 08:02									#111
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Kid No, liberals who want other people to pay for what they want are like children in a candy store. I said this quite clearly, why the confusion? And whats that about working for me? The reason most seniors feel entitled to SS is because they've been taxed to pay for the program. The problem is: the politicians they elected to run the program ripped them off and can only pay back what was stolen by stealing from their children and grandchilden.

Another attempt to bring you out of your own little world has failed.

	11-01-2005 08:28									#112
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I think that annoying the Libertarians is a sufficient justification for the existence of taxation. It certainly increases my welfare to know how pissed off they all are.

	11-01-2005 08:58									#113
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

AH

quote: you can certainly opt out of using government services - governments like people like that You can't however opt out of paying for them

Which means liberals are making me pay for what they want.

Kid

quote: Another attempt to bring you out of your own little world has failed.

You should know we're iced in here so my little world will have to suffice for now.

Aggie - so you take pleasure in the suffering of others? I knew your ideology was based on envy but thats a new twist. You must have had a really big grin on your face the day after Christmas.

	11-01-2005 10:14									#114
	Tired of ads?

quote: Aggie - so you take pleasure in the suffering of others? I knew your ideology was based on envy

Since when does sadism have anything to do with envy?

	11-01-2005 10:56									#115
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I personally have no objection to taxation. I think, though, that taxes should be structured to meet the required government revenue while simultaneously maximizing economic growth. This is a fundamentally different philosophy from socialism who uses taxation and social programs to shift incomes from one class to another cares not one whit about economic growth.

	11-01-2005 11:01									#116
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Since when does sadism have anything to do with envy?

I said this was a new twist in addition to envy.

quote: I knew your ideology was based on envy but thats a new twist.

See?

	11-01-2005 11:09									#117
	Tired of ads?

Berzerker is on about envy again. Yes Berzerker, poor people are envious I'm sure. However, not everyone who is not a libertarian is poor or envious. They're just sensible people, with a desire for justice.

	11-01-2005 11:10									#118
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Ned I personally have no objection to taxation. I think, though, that taxes should be structured to meet the required government revenue while simultaneously maximizing economic growth. This is a fundamentally different philosophy from socialism who uses taxation and social programs to shift incomes from one class to another cares not one whit about economic growth.

I don't think economic growth is all that important. Stability and equality are more important.

	11-01-2005 11:22									#119
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Kid -

quote: Berzerker is on about envy again. Yes Berzerker, poor people are envious I'm sure.

No, the liberal/statist ideology is based on envy. I was poor (even homeless for a bit) but I wasn't envious...

quote: However, not everyone who is not a libertarian is poor or envious. They're just sensible people, with a desire for justice.

The only poor people I mentioned were the people being taxed to pay for the retirements of richer people.

	11-01-2005 11:53									#120
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Agathon I think that annoying the Libertarians is a sufficient justification for the existence of taxation. It certainly increases my welfare to know how pissed off they all are.

same here