08-01-2005 18:32									#31
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quote: There's a difference between that and being allowed to randomly stop people in the street and ask them for ID, even if they're weeding their garden, just taking a stroll, or doing their groceries, minding their own business...

or just driving...

but somehow, people caught simply driving can have their licenses checked... It's all the same, and I don't see how anyone should care about that.

	08-01-2005 18:34									#32
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quote: Why? What do they accomplish? Do you think terrorists will now think "oh sh*t, the Netherlans turned into a fortress, we better not go there anymore"? It's just one more in a long line of measures recently to punish the good guys for something the bad guys did. The only thing that this will lead to is far more IDs being lost or stolen, which will of course help terrorists and criminals greatly in securing false IDs. That will not only avoid them getting caught by random police searches, it will also make it easier for them to open bank accounts, enter airports, etc, etc...

Against terrorism, I assume very little, if anything.
They do help to prevent things as social security schemes/fraude etc.

	08-01-2005 18:36									#33
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Why do you hate freedom, alva?

	08-01-2005 18:37									#34
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quote: They know f*ck all about me, or I wouldn't have to fill in a dozen forms when I want to request a copy of my birth certificate or fill in my taxes

So they still have the information, it's just harder to get it( more expensive/overhead/bureacracy/waste ), all that changes is that the clerk at the birth-certificate office knows f*ck all about you.

All I have to do, is show my ID card, et voila...

	08-01-2005 18:40									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Why do you hate freedom, alva?

	08-01-2005 18:40									#36
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Personal ID here issued at the age of 16, with a picture (sensible). Can be acquired before 16, though, if neccessary. I don't have to carry it with me, and police for instance can't require me to have one. Obviously, I need it to do any legal things or stuff that requires me to confirm my identity. There is also a limited number of institutions that will probably check your ID if you want something from them.

	08-01-2005 18:43									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Why do you hate freedom, alva?

There is a pattern you know.

People who are used to carrying an ID around don't see them as restricting their freedom.

And why all these negative views on police ?
I know some police are racist, but I like to think of them as exceptions.
Compulsory ID cards will not make them any more racist btw.

	08-01-2005 18:45									#38
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Personally, I would not care if I had to carry one around with me. What I do oppose is we are forced to pay for the ID cards. Take the money needed out of bloated MPs salaries and bonuses

(A yes, I don't really like the idea 100%, I would rather wait for biometric tests to have gone through full testing first.)

	08-01-2005 18:52									#39
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quote: There is a pattern you know. People who are used to carrying an ID around don't see them as restricting their freedom. And why all these negative views on police ? I know some police are racist, but I like to think of them as exceptions. Compulsory ID cards will not make them any more racist btw.

Yeah, and in any case, how would racist police benefit from IDs? If they're crooked and want to pin a blame on someone, they could do it in other ways.

I don't think that one should be fined for not carrying one, but there are other ways to make people carry them. Besides, the alternative identity check, which is time consuming, is punishment enough.

	08-01-2005 18:52									#40
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quote: What's the difference with being asked for your driver's license and being asked for your personal ID ?

Driving a car is not your fundamental right. To be allowed to do it, you need to get a license from the state.

Freedom of movement on the other hand, is your fundamental right, as guaranteed by almost every Constitution in the world.

	08-01-2005 18:58									#41
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quote: Driving a car is not your fundamental right.

why not? It's just another form of freedom of movement. The fact we were deprived of that basic freedom of so long doesn't mean that its not a basic freedom.

	08-01-2005 19:02									#42
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quote: Driving a car is not your fundamental right. To be allowed to do it, you need to get a license from the state. Freedom of movement on the other hand, is your fundamental right, as guaranteed by almost every Constitution in the world

And a ID card restricts your movement how exactly?

Noone opposes passports, we all know they are needed, yet we oppose them in our own country, why? What's the difference between a passport and a ID card?
Do you feel - or even are - less free carrying a passport ?

	08-01-2005 19:07									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Flandrien There is a pattern you know. People who are used to carrying an ID around don't see them as restricting their freedom. And why all these negative views on police ? I know some police are racist, but I like to think of them as exceptions. Compulsory ID cards will not make them any more racist btw.

I think the big difference is, that those that haven't got them, think of them as a tool for the state to impose control and restrictions on the individual, where's a we see them as a handy tool.

We see tham from a first person POV first, they see them from a third person POV first.

I personally have far bigger issues with something like CCTV where you are CONSTANTLY being monitored.
At least with a ID card, I know when it is being 'recorded'.

	08-01-2005 19:16									#44
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quote: Originally posted by alva Doesn't happen, WWII is past us for some time now. Just as before, a cop needs a valid reason to stop you, why would having an ID card make any difference?

I refer to my earlier example: just some ME guys hanging around, not bothering anyone, were asked to ID themselves. The police have said they'll do this more often (though they denied they're being racist of course), particularly when young people are hanging around in groups. Because we all know, young people who are just hanging around, talking to each other and having fun are all a bunch of terrorists preparing to suicide-attack the rest of us

quote: Originally posted by Azazel or just driving... but somehow, people caught simply driving can have their licenses checked... It's all the same, and I don't see how anyone should care about that.

No, not just driving, at least not in the Netherlands (until recently). The cops could only stop you if you had violated traffic laws or when they were doing regulated traffic inspections, i.e. inspections that were cleared by a judge in advance, which had a set location and time, and which had a specific purpose (e.g. alcohol check, drug trafficing check, vehicle check, etc).

But regardless, anyone driving cars are a menace to society, a car is a lethal weapon. People walking around with guns or knifes get stopped as well, as are people driving a bike irresponsibly fast in areas with lots of pedestrians or small kids.

quote: Originally posted by alva Against terrorism, I assume very little, if anything. They do help to prevent things as social security schemes/fraude etc.

So do you have to carry it around 24-7 for that? Do you have to be thrown in jail for a day if they catch you walking in the street without an ID? What on earth does that accomplish?

quote: Originally posted by Flandrien People who are used to carrying an ID around don't see them as restricting their freedom.[quote] The people of North Korea, Cuba, China or the Arab world aren't exactly complaining about lack of freedom either. But most importantly, noone has managed to name even ONE *good* thing about carrying around IDs 24-7 yet. They don't help fight terrorism or crime, they only increase the number of illegal IDs available to criminals and terrorists, they cost a lot of money and are a pain in the arse to carry with you all the time. Why the f*ck would anyone want to make them compulsory? [quote]And why all these negative views on police ? I know some police are racist, but I like to think of them as exceptions. Compulsory ID cards will not make them any more racist btw.

It was more as an illustration how random the police is using the new law. Hanging around doing nothing is apparently not illegal, because they tolerate it from some people. Yet in other cases it's apparently a menace to society, as these people's ID needs to be checked, just for hanging around. Right now it's racism against MEers and discrimination against young people, but I can only wonder who's next? It's randomly stopping people the officer in question doesn't like...

	08-01-2005 19:25									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus Because if you take a stroll to get some air and forgot to take it with you, the cops can arrest you and throw you in jail, or at least give you a hefty fine. If that's not a restriction of freedom I don't know what is...

Yes, that's the theory...

However, I'm sure that if the man were to check you out completely, they could put you in jail, or fine you too.
I'm sure that you forgot to mention something on your tax return ( I do mean forgot, not "forgot"). I'm sure that upon inspecting your house, they could come up with something not a 100% compliant with regulations, be it fire-prevention or anything else.

If you break the law, you get a ticket, it's that simple.

Let me ask you this though, have you ever gotten a ticket for running a red light at 4 in the morning? Well, neither have I.

I don't even think they write tickets for not carrying your ID here. Just show them your drivers license.


They last time - and I think the only time - I got asked my ID, I was about 17.
I had long, long hair, it was late, we were outside on the street and a block away from us, a woman got mugged and we fitted the profile.
So were they right to ask for it? I think so yes, sure why not.

Other than that, I need or use it, just like the rest uses their drivers-license, when going to the bank etc...

	08-01-2005 19:28									#46
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quote: Originally posted by alva And a ID card restricts your movement how exactly?

Because walking around without one can get you thrown in jail?

quote: Noone opposes passports, we all know they are needed, yet we oppose them in our own country, why? What's the difference between a passport and a ID card? Do you feel - or even are - less free carrying a passport ?

I carry a passport when crossing a border into a foreign country. Those people have the right to know who's entering their country.

It's noone's f*cking business who's weeding my garden or walking around on a public sidewalk, at least not as long as I'm not bothering anyone or breaking any laws.

	08-01-2005 19:44									#47
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quote: Yeah, becuase you wouldn't notice if you were walking on the street butt-naked

That is not the point. The point is that there is already a lot of things you must do or that you cant do and you dont relationate it with losing freedom.

OTOH they help a lot fighting crime. For instance if a fingerprint is found in crime scenery the criminal can be identified instantly.

Why do you think police wants to implant ID?

	08-01-2005 19:56									#48
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quote: Originally posted by alva However, I'm sure that if the man were to check you out completely, they could put you in jail, or fine you too.

There would have to be a charge. If I haven't done anything wrong, what are they gonna arrest me for? If there's no charge, the judge will make sure I'm compensated for any damage done.

quote: I'm sure that you forgot to mention something on your tax return ( I do mean forgot, not "forgot"). I'm sure that upon inspecting your house, they could come up with something not a 100% compliant with regulations, be it fire-prevention or anything else.

Nope, I've always been the nicest boy in class, never break any rules, always do what I'm told. You'd have a pretty darn hard job pinning anything at all on me.

But regardless, the cops can't just bust into your house and check if anything doesn't comply with regulations. They need permission from the DA/judge/whatever from that, who won't give such permission unless there are serious suspicions you did anything wrong.

Checking for ID can be done at any point for pretty much any reason though, even if you haven't done (or aren't suspected of having done) anything wrong. It's exactly that which is my problem. If there are strong suspicions you broke the law, of course they can arrest you and demand identification. But that can be arranged then and there. There's no reason why just walking on the street in itself should be illegal (which is now the case in the Netherlands, unless you carry proper ID).

quote: If you break the law, you get a ticket, it's that simple.

The thing is, you actually did something illegal then. I refuse to accept that not having an ID on you makes you a criminal, even if this is now unfortunately the case in the Netherlands.

quote: Let me ask you this though, have you ever gotten a ticket for running a red light at 4 in the morning? Well, neither have I.

So? Just because the cops are lenient (read: have common sense) in one area, does that give them permission to be completely unreasonable in other areas? I mean, the law was in effect only a few days and already they threw a 14-year-old girl in jail! There's no excuse in the world that could cover that, no matter who she was (providing she didn't break any laws, which was the case here). You might take her to the station for an hour to check her identify and contact her parents, but you don't throw here in jail for a day for forgettting her ID!

quote: I don't even think they write tickets for not carrying your ID here. Just show them your drivers license.

Well, they do here. And I don't have a driving license. I only have a passport, and I can assure you that's a pain in the arse to carry around all the time. Doesn't fit in a wallet, barely fits in a coat pocket, is declared void if even mildly damaged (which will inevitably happen if carried around in a pocket), is easily stolen and f*cking expensive to replace (and difficult: in order to replace a passport you have to show a valid ID ). But those are the least of my worries about this issue...

quote: They last time - and I think the only time - I got asked my ID, I was about 17. I had long, long hair, it was late, we were outside on the street and a block away from us, a woman got mugged and we fitted the profile. So were they right to ask for it? I think so yes, sure why not.

Would that have happened in the Netherlands last year, at the most the cops would have checked in with the station (or even taken you there if the case against you was strong) to confirm your identity (based on address, etc) and then you'd be off again. Now, if the same happens and you don't have an ID, they will throw you in jail. Just for walking near a crime scene...

Again, the police have indicated in the press they're liking this new law and will be using it to its fullest potential. The situation here looking to probably become a lot worse than in Belgium (which is why I'm *seriously* starting to consider moving to either Belgium or Germany; things are getting worse and worse over here).

	08-01-2005 20:01									#49
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As a Belgian it's compulsory for me to carry my ID card around all the time. I've never been asked to show it to a policeman in my entire life. Me thinks you're making a big deal about nothing.

quote: Originally posted by Locutus Would that have happened in the Netherlands last year, at the most the cops would have checked in with the station (or even taken you there if the case against you was strong) to confirm your identity (based on address, etc) and then you'd be off again. Now, if the same happens and you don't have an ID, they will throw you in jail. Just for walking near a crime scene...

If that is the case, the problem lies with the police, not with the ID card.

	08-01-2005 20:03									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Thorgal That is not the point. The point is that there is already a lot of things you must do or that you cant do and you dont relationate it with losing freedom.

So besides wearing cloths, what else exactly do you have to do to exercise a basic right like walking on the street, buying some groceries or weeding your garden?

quote: OTOH they help a lot fighting crime. For instance if a fingerprint is found in crime scenery the criminal can be identified instantly.

So it's a big deal if they have to wait 5 minutes to check in with station to confirm a suspect's statement, or 30 minutes to accompany a suspect home to get his papers? Plus, Dutch passports don't have fingerprint info (yet). Just name, address, etc.

Carrying ID doesn't help squat there. Please explain how else it might help as I still fail to see even a single advantage...

	08-01-2005 20:04									#51
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We have national IDs in the form of Social Security what ever cards. Everyone has them. But no, you don't need to carry ID with you. Cops can ask you for ID, but they can't punish you for not having it or having it with you because well, you don't have to carry them by law.

I don't know if the cops can just ask you for your ID for no reason. I think they can't. I mean of course they CAN, but they can't demand it I believe. Unless there's a reasonable reason to suspect you. Which is kind of a.. in the air kind of reason, but really you don't have to carry. My card is so old it doesn't even have my picture in it.

In fact Not too long ago I had a situation where I had no valid ID card of any kind (driver's license, passport) with picutre on it.

So if social security card is counted as national ID card, then we have, but then again you have to have it Other than that, you don't need anything and you don't need to carry anytrhing with you.

	08-01-2005 20:06									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac As a Belgian it's compulsory for me to carry my ID card around all the time. I've never been asked to show it to a policeman in my entire life. Me thinks you're making a big deal about nothing.

You live in Belgium, I live in the Netherlands. In Belgium the authorities mostly seem reasonable (if somewhat incapable, but that's just as true here ). You severely underestimate what 3 (attempted) political murders did to the poltical and social climate here...

quote: If that is the case, the problem lies with the police, not with the ID card.

No, the problem lies with the police being allowed to throw someone in jail for not carrying ID. Last year that was illegal, that now changed.

	08-01-2005 20:07									#53
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In the USA, we have drivers licenses that work as personal IDs. That is the main one that is used, although there are other types of IDs you'll occasionally see, for instance as a student I have a Student ID card. It's not compulsory to carry ID, but there are a number of things you need it for, so most people simply carry it around on them.

	08-01-2005 20:09									#54
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quote: So it's a big deal if they have to wait 5 minutes to check in with station to confirm a suspect's statement, or 30 minutes to accompany a suspect home to get his papers?

You have said it yourdself. IF police have a suspect.

	08-01-2005 20:10									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Thorgal You have said it yourdself. IF police have a suspect.

If they don't, how will people carrying IDs help?

	08-01-2005 20:12									#56
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Right, and Driver's License is also the most used ID in here as well.. and most people carry that with them all the time anyways.

	08-01-2005 20:19									#57
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quote: The thing is, you actually did something illegal then. I refuse to accept that not having an ID on you makes you a criminal, even if this is now unfortunately the case in the Netherlands.

People had the same view on things when seat-belts became mandatory.

quote: So? Just because the cops are lenient (read: have common sense) in one area, does that give them permission to be completely unreasonable in other areas? I mean, the law was in effect only a few days and already they threw a 14-year-old girl in jail! There's no excuse in the world that could cover that, no matter who she was (providing she didn't break any laws, which was the case here). You might take her to the station for an hour to check her identify and contact her parents, but you don't throw here in jail for a day for forgettting her ID!

Most people - yes, even cops - do have common sense.

- New laws will probably make some cops overzealus
- there's always one f*cker among the bunch.
Though that particularly incident is regrettable and the officers involved should be punished, you have to see it for what it is...an incident and not the rule.

quote: I only have a passport, and I can assure you that's a pain in the arse to carry around all the time.

Why not do as we do and get a ID system in place, much easier...

quote: Would that have happened in the Netherlands last year, at the most the cops would have checked in with the station (or even taken you there if the case against you was strong) to confirm your identity (based on address, etc) and then you'd be off again. Now, if the same happens and you don't have an ID, they will throw you in jail. Just for walking near a crime scene...

So me having an ID ( and the fact that they drove by with the lady in question telling them it wasn't us) got us out of the situation in a matter of minutes insteead of having to go to the police-station etc.

So in this case, I could argue that my freedom was less infrinched upon due to my freedom being limited by having to carry a mandotory ID.

Not only did this save some of my time but also that of the cops which they can spend on...catching real criminals.

quote: Again, the police have indicated in the press they're liking this new law and will be using it to its fullest potential.

Yes, they will..the first two weeks.

quote: The situation here looking to probably become a lot worse than in Belgium

Eugh, we already have ID's, so why move to this place?

[q]Maniac:
If that is the case, the problem lies with the police, not with the ID card.
[q]
Indeed

	08-01-2005 20:23									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: Driving a car is not your fundamental right. why not? It's just another form of freedom of movement. The fact we were deprived of that basic freedom of so long doesn't mean that its not a basic freedom.

because the roads aren't your poperty, they are the governments

so if you don't follow the governments rules, you can't use them


and yes, on your own property you can drive without a license

JM

	08-01-2005 20:24									#59
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quote: You severely underestimate what 3 (attempted) political murders did to the poltical and social climate here...

True, I guess they have shaken the dutch society a lot more profoundly than we can even imagine.

quote: In the USA, we have drivers licenses that work as personal IDs. That is the main one that is used, although there are other types of IDs you'll occasionally see, for instance as a student I have a Student ID card. It's not compulsory to carry ID, but there are a number of things you need it for, so most people simply carry it around on them.

So why not make a standardised one for everyone...? One that's harder to replicate, one that's accepted with all authorities ( so you don't need several) etc...

	08-01-2005 20:26									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller because the roads aren't your poperty, they are the governments so if you don't follow the governments rules, you can't use them and yes, on your own property you can drive without a license JM

So the pavement is your property? You can walk on your property without a license(ID) too.