09-01-2005 21:08									#91
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quote: otherwise going out of business would be very strange

People declare bankruptcy.

And how come, if me and my friends decide to pool our money, we suddenly aren't free to devote said money to political expression? I guess we might as well get rid of all those advocacy groups...

	09-01-2005 21:25									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker And how come, if me and my friends decide to pool our money, we suddenly aren't free to devote said money to political expression? I guess we might as well get rid of all those advocacy groups...

You mean Democrats and Republicans? I agree.

	09-01-2005 23:33									#93
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Interesting, beside me, only three people need to provide fingerprints when getting the ID issued.

In the majority of the world, it seems, police don't have a database of fingerprints of the entire population, and they still manage to preserve law and order and solve crimes.

Interesting, interesting...

	10-01-2005 01:29									#94
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-personal IDs issued by the government exist in my country
-I have to provide a picture
-I have to provide fingerprints (at least in the old ID card, don't know about the new one)
-I have to carry it with me wherever I go
-There are authorised persons to whom I HAVE to show it if they ask (only Carabineros if they ask me, which only happens when you run over (sp?) a red light or something)

	10-01-2005 02:14									#95
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Thanks everyone for the replies!

Enough people voted for purposes of my survey.

It seems I'm not the only one living in a police state

It seems only half of personal IDs are compulsory

It seems that trend in the world is toward less freedin, not more

	10-01-2005 02:27									#96
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In Panama there is a thing called the Cedula, which is an ID given to all adults- its given by the Board of Elections-everyone gets it, and its the standard proof of both identity and age (to get into clubs, drink, so forth).

I have no problem with even compulsory ID's- just leave it in your wallet or purse, its not really a hastle at all.

BUt such cards can be abused, depending on the nature of the regime: in Rwanda the Hutu militia knew whom to kill by asking people for their ID's, which had ethnic identity on it.

	10-01-2005 05:11									#97
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Like my fellow countrymen, I too think a personal ID is no big deal.
What Gepap and others have said is true, it's not the fact of having an ID card that could be bothersome, it's the nature of the regime in that particular country that could cause problems.

The Netherlands is going through a fase of hysteria as far as I can see from over here, and then ID cards could get dangerous indeed as Locutus has pointed out.

On the contrary though in a moderate state like ours it's actually awfully handy to have a legal ID. With it you can show to any official institution who you are and those institutions, or shops, banks and whatever can't be fooled by giving up some fake indentification. I too wonder how people without an ID indentify themselves. For example, I don't drive a car... how on earth could I identify myself to others? I wouldn't be able to prove that I'm me!

Besides, nobody can ask for an ID just like that plus it's handy to simply carry it along in a wallet.
IDs are great, we should support it

	10-01-2005 05:34									#98
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom It has long been a tradition in this country that your identity is your own business, not the state's, the monarch's nor the police's, and that they have to provide a reason for enquiring after your identity. Any forms of identity that you HAVE to carry are linked with things such as entering restricted areas (private businesses, some government buildings, army bases). If I am a law abiding citizen, going about my lawful business, the state can go and f**k itself frankly, before it demands to know who I am with no just cause.

Its the same in Australia - of course elements of the government would love all citizens to have an ID card but the benefits, preventing tax evasion etc., are overstated.

	10-01-2005 07:39									#99
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I have to carry an ID at all times.
I don't know if the lack thereof is a punishable offense, but it would certainly be a lot of hassle, should the cops ask me for one.
I have to show it to the cops if they ask me
I have to provide a pic (duh)
I have to provide my fingerprints (and this is something new)

While it is indeed not Orwellian, I hate it. I especially hate the idea of providing my fingerprints, as well as the idea that the police can do random checks.

Not that I have often een controlled, mind you. I don't know if the policemen are instructed to, or if they are inherently racist, but they seem never to check the IDs of white people. Whenever the police approaches some group of (foreign-origin, presumably dangerous ) teenagers, the always check the IDs if they can't find anything else. The IDs of the non-whites, that is

Very often, when I cross the German border, there are German cops who control the IDs. They only check the IDs of brown people. I have been checked a grand total of two times in my life, including once where they couldn't see my skin colour, because of my sleeping position.

Same idea for my rother: the only time he was checked in France (randomly, of course) was when he came back from vacations with a strong tan, and looked like a brown person

	10-01-2005 07:49									#100
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ID cards were originally introduced into many parts of Europe by the nazis during WWII. Governments kept the ID system going after the war.

Still feel like defending them?

	10-01-2005 13:51									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse ID cards were originally introduced into many parts of Europe by the nazis during WWII. Governments kept the ID system going after the war. Still feel like defending them?

As much as I dislike some parts of the mandatory IDing, this is a non-argument.

The nazis built highways. The nazis had one of the most ambitious ecological policy ever. The nazis restored economic stability and employment. Since these policies have been held by the nazis, it proves those are horrible policies we should shun for the rest of time

	10-01-2005 14:19									#102
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CANADA: You are not required to get any sort of identification card at any point in your life.

If you want to work, you need a social insurance number (no picture)

If you want to drive you need to get a driver's license (picture)

If you want the free government health care (which you do) then you need a Medicare card (picture)

If you want to travel outside of a select group of foreign countries then you need a passport (picture)

US where I currently reside): same system as above (minus the Medicare bit as they hate it when poor people can afford going to the doctor's). For me, however, as I am a visiting student I must theoretically carry my passport and attached I-94 form with me everywhere I go and present it upon request. I must also keep the US government informed of my current residence at all times. The fact is that I don't carry my passport with me anywhere. It stays safely in my house. If somebody wants to see it they can let me go get it there or not. Their business.

	10-01-2005 14:25									#103
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Hmm, looks like Finland's system is pretty much identical to Canada's - I will have to correct myself and Pekka in the sense that the SS number is mandatory, but the "card" we've talked about is the health insurance card, which I guess isn't mandatory (but you'd be silly not to get one), but the Finnish card does not necessarily have a picture.

	10-01-2005 14:50									#104
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Anything proposed by that scum-sucking bastard Blair should be abandoned and he should be shot.

The man is single-handedly wrecking the Labour Party for good.

	10-01-2005 15:09									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Flandrien Why ? What's the difference with being asked for your driver's license and being asked for your personal ID ?

From 'The Guardian' 17th December 2004:

" To be anonymous, to go privately, to move residence without telling the authorities is a fundamental liberty which is about to be taken from us. People may not choose to exercise this entitlement to privacy, or see the point of it, but once it's gone and a vast database is built, eventually to be accessed by every tentacle of the government machine, we will never be able to claw it back. We are about to surrender a right which is precious, rare even in western democracies, and profoundly emblematic of our culture and civilisation. And what for? The government advances arguments of necessity, raising the threats of terrorism, organised crime, benefit fraud and illegal immigration.

It is obvious that the members of criminal gangs will not be deterred by having to apply for identity cards, just as they are not by the need to have a passport. The possession of a legitimate national ID card does not of itself magically prevent criminal intent. It doesn't in mafia and Camorra strongholds of Italy, so why should it here?

Benefit fraud may be reduced a little, but most cases involve people making false claims about their circumstances, not their identity. A national registration scheme will do nothing to put off those bent on coming here, as has been discovered in France, Spain and Italy, which of course all have identity card schemes.

The first claim about countering the terrorist threat is, of course, baloney. Even at the height of the IRA campaign no one suggested that identity cards would defeat the active units here, or in Northern Ireland. Al-Qaida will not be unduly troubled by an identity card. The Spanish card did not prevent the Madrid train bombs; the German card didn't impede the Hamburg cell; and the Italian card didn't limit the activities of al-Qaida's financing and support cells.

When Blunkett was riding high and his problems appeared to be under control, he stated that MI5 and MI6 would be allowed access to the central register in the fight against terrorism because it will provide a "full audit trail" of when and where cards are produced - at hospitals, banks, local councils. The full audit trail was a phrase that gave Blunkett some satisfaction. One hopes that Clarke will be less susceptible to its allure, for it means that everyone's actions will be discreetly recorded on computer, just like the number recognition technology that logs the movement of every vehicle on Britain's major roads.

This is a chilling prospect, and we should ask ourselves whether we're willing to trust the government with such power. Has the prime minister's behaviour before and after the release of the September WMD dossier been so scrupulous as to suggest that his government would not in extremis abuse such an instrument? Did Mr Blunkett's respect for the traditions of liberty and free speech suggest that we could have had complete faith in him? What about his successor? Let us hope that he is more able to weigh the likely benefits against the undoubted loss of liberty.

Simply working on the evidence in the serious organised crime and police bill, I suggest that the restriction of defendants' rights, the curbs on protest and the measures relating to arrest are enough to conclude that the government's aim is to increase the power of the state at the expense of civil liberties. Yet the real concern must be not with Blair, with what Blunkett did or even what Charles may do, but with future governments, the nature of which we cannot predict.

We may fret about illegal immigration and improper use of the NHS, but the national identity register, which will include adults' fingerprints and an electronic scan of the face or iris, as well as date of birth and address, is the tyrant's ideal means of control. This is presumably why other English-speaking countries have rejected compulsory schemes backed up by penalties.

If we are to accept this sinister legislation, which will cost upwards of £3bn, we should know that it will be a matter of time before a government insists that the unique key to every adult's genetic profile be included on the card. With that would come a data bank of every individual's DNA to be accessed by God knows whom, with God knows what terrifying purpose. Later versions of the ID card might carry a chip called a radio frequency identification (RFID), which can be read from a distance. Thus anyone carrying a card who passes a sensor will give away their position.

This is not science fiction. RFID technology is being tested for US passports, and the British police are covertly monitoring an individual's movements with analogous technology on motorways.

We must not imagine that respect for individual liberty is innate to the British establishment. With this bill, the government is attempting to change for ever the relationship between the individual and the state in the state's favour. Those who treasure liberty must not let it pass. "


The difference between a driving licence and personal identity cards is of course that a driving licence is required to drive vehicles. As of yet, in this country, no one has made it compulsory to have a licence to be in charge of one's own body.

	10-01-2005 15:15									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor As much as I dislike some parts of the mandatory IDing, this is a non-argument. The nazis built highways. The nazis had one of the most ambitious ecological policy ever. The nazis restored economic stability and employment. Since these policies have been held by the nazis, it proves those are horrible policies we should shun for the rest of time

No, what it shows is that Europeans like you are conditioned to accept things that others don't. There are some basic freedoms you don't have and concepts about freedom that you simply can't grasp.

	10-01-2005 15:34									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse No, what it shows is that Europeans like you are conditioned to accept things that others don't. There are some basic freedoms you don't have and concepts about freedom that you simply can't grasp.

Now, this argument is a real one. I agree with what you say (although the concept of ID cards by itself is not anti-freedom, it's the use that is made of it).

But you should be aware that saying "the nazis did it" is not an argument.

	10-01-2005 15:52									#108
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I agree with what you say (although the concept of ID cards by itself is not anti-freedom, it's the use that is made of it).

Actually, under English law, an identity card would be anti-freedom in itself, since a person's anonymity has been a basic of civil liberties in England.


As I am not breaking the law at the moment (nor planning to) the government has no right (as yet) to request my identity or demand that I identify myself to my local constabulary, without showing due cause.

	10-01-2005 16:03									#109
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@ the Eurocoms who think this is no big deal and claim this isn't Orwellian:
A freedom is taken away from you, you are forced to wear a bloody card, and after a while you get used to it, to the point where you actually begin to defend it! What could be more Orwellian than that? Wake up!

[/mad rant]

	10-01-2005 16:07									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf @ the Eurocoms who think this is no big deal and claim this isn't Orwellian: A freedom is taken away from you, you are forced to wear a bloody card, and after a while you get used to it, to the point where you actually begin to defend it! What could be more Orwellian than that? Wake up! [/mad rant]

I agree, which is no surprise. Essential freedoms, once taken away, are much harder to get back.

	10-01-2005 16:37									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf @ the Eurocoms who think this is no big deal and claim this isn't Orwellian: A freedom is taken away from you, you are forced to wear a bloody card, and after a while you get used to it, to the point where you actually begin to defend it! What could be more Orwellian than that? Wake up! [/mad rant]

Yes, little Spiffor has really been exposed on this one.

	10-01-2005 16:41									#112
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion It seems that trend in the world is toward less freedin, not more

trend in the world is more freedom to less people

	10-01-2005 17:51									#113
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Driver's license is pretty much all I've ever needed, occasionally I've needed a passport (though strangely, even though passports are more secure than driver's licenses, there are some non driving-related things for which you often can't substitute a passport for a driver's license, e.g., buying booze, though this is solely due to the fact that most booze clerks aren't familiar with passports and hence don't trust them). I've also needed to provide a birth certificate from time to time. I forget if any of these have my fingerprints on them. My ID for work is a smart card with my fingerprint data stored on it, though they're thinking of switching to (or supplementing the data with) iris data at some point. In practice I don't think they ever use the fingerprint data, though, since the only people who would be interested in verifying the data are also the same people who don't trust the security of the ID card.

	10-01-2005 18:06									#114
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I am amazed that you people focus on ID cards that much.

IDs are far less dangerous to your privacy than the many electronic devices recording every of your moves: CCTV, cell phones, credit cards, etc. will rat you out much faster than any ID you carry.

You may reply that you're not forced to go under CCTV, that you can live without cell phones and credit cards, etc. and you're right: you can live as an ermit if you so wish. But if you ahppen to go to the supermarket for your groceries, and if you sometimes pay with your card or take money at an ATM, then you're under far closer scrutiny than you'd be with mere IDs.

The reason why IDs don't disturb me too much as a principle, whereas the fingerprinting thing bothers me immensely, is because the info on my ID is under my control. I carry my ID at all times, it's not like the police could recognize me if I didn't show it to them.
It's very different with fingerprints: the police has now recorded my fingerprints, and it can know my trace in my absence wherever I go. The fingerprinting thing is the one reason why I adamantly refuse to go to the US, incidentally (because I have a choice in that matter).

But to focus on the ID is quite weak IMHO. You would be much better served opposing the electronic rats. Because they're everywhere, and the data there will completely escape your grasp.

	11-01-2005 15:17									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I am amazed that you people focus on ID cards that much. IDs are far less dangerous to your privacy than the many electronic devices recording every of your moves: CCTV, cell phones, credit cards, etc. will rat you out much faster than any ID you carry.

Because they are all optional.


You are not mandated by governmental decree to carry a mobile phone. I do not possess either a mobile phone or a credit card.

C.C.T.V. I can do little about as an individual, but again this is a case where 'the people' have been convinced that C.C.T.V. offers 'protection' against street crime, vandalism, theft from hole in the wall cash machines, rogue street traders, urban terrorism, et cetera.

It certainly makes the work of the police and store detectives easier, but at the cost of unscrutinised surveillance of the public at large.

I suspect that in a similar fashion, the current government is attempting (so far not overly successfully) to convince the public at large that being forced to carry goevrnment decreed identification at all times somehow acts as a deterrent to international terrorism and benefit fraud and illegal immigration, none of which assertions have been shown to be true.

	11-01-2005 15:25									#116
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I still don't get how me carrying a card in my wallet invades my privacy.

Say, the world is run by fascists, and I am a wanted freedom fighter, or stuff. How does the fact that people carry an ID card help them?

CCTV on the streets, btw

	11-01-2005 15:37									#117
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom You are not mandated by governmental decree to carry a mobile phone. I do not possess either a mobile phone or a credit card.

I don't have a cell phone either (I hate the things) but I am genuinely curious about how you use your money without any banking card... Do you go take cash at the bank's clerk whenever your reserves are thin? Are you paid cash by your employer?

	11-01-2005 15:58									#118
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Because they are all optional. You are not mandated by governmental decree to carry a mobile phone. I do not possess either a mobile phone or a credit card.

That's the brilliance of it all. Not only do we allow ourselves to carry these things that actually do invade our privacy, we even pay for the bloody things but oh no, don't even think about introducing a little plastic card that combines some personal info that could cut down on bureaucracy.

	11-01-2005 16:01									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel I still don't get how me carrying a card in my wallet invades my privacy. Say, the world is run by fascists, and I am a wanted freedom fighter, or stuff. How does the fact that people carry an ID card help them?

From the Guardian article:

'To be anonymous, to go privately, to move residence without telling the authorities is a fundamental liberty which is about to be taken from us. People may not choose to exercise this entitlement to privacy, or see the point of it, but once it's gone and a vast database is built, eventually to be accessed by every tentacle of the government machine, we will never be able to claw it back. We are about to surrender a right which is precious, rare even in western democracies, and profoundly emblematic of our culture and civilisation.'



Spiffor- I simply don't live beyond my means. Again, this would seem to be rare in Western democracies these days too, if the levels of credit card debt are to be believed....

	11-01-2005 18:27									#120
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Innoccent until proven guilty is a pretty universal concept. So should "not a suspect until you do something suspicious".

Compulsory ID cards suck and in the UK we already have voluntary ones - Passports and driving licenses. So we don't need them. End of story.

Oh and here they're saying that they'll cut out benefit fraud... how do prove who you are in the first place to get one? using one or more of the current id formats that is supposedly unreliable? So this is unreliable too.

Total waste of time and money, and if there's any chance of them being compulsory it's a massive violation of our freedom.