08-01-2005 14:42									#1
	Personal ID's, how is it in your country? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

In Croatia:

You are obliged to get one after you are 16 years old, but you can get it earlier. You have to carry it with you non-stop and everywhere. Police is authorised by law to ask your ID at any time, and you have to show it to them.

Penalty:

If you get checked for ID and you don't have it with you the fine is about 15 Euro, plus you may get taken to the police station for identity check or the policeman trying to check you can do it by radio if you provided him with personal data.


________

My comment: the enforcement of this is not very orwellian, usually policemen don't ID people for fun. They're mostly polite when they do and after you show them your ID card they go away. Still, many people here, me included, find the practice undefensible. Free people should not be coerced by the state to carry ID's all the time, like branded cattle. Many bring out examples of USA to demonstrate that a society can function without personal ID cards completely, or without them being compulsory (France).

So I am interested about both theory and practice in your country. Both, because it can happen that some country has very strict ID regulations but they are not enforced at all, or there can be a country that is a police state without personal ID cards, using other methods. Thanks for replies. You can also vote in the poll, it's quick and messy, so please provide replies too.

	08-01-2005 14:55									#2
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I fail to see why I should be required to carry some bureaucratic stamp of approval to go about my lawful business in Britain.

If the police want to stop me, I suggest they wait until I actually do something worth stopping me for.

	08-01-2005 15:15									#3
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You are set to get them in 2007 I think, so just wait and see.

	08-01-2005 15:30									#4
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Aha. They're starting to chicken out of making them compulsory.

	08-01-2005 15:36									#6
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This year they passed a new 'anti-terrorist' law in the Netherlands (can you say Patriot Act?) and now everyone of 14 years and older must carry ID. Officially the police is only allowed to ask for it when they have a very good reason, but already in a week time dozens of fines have been handed out for people not being able to identify themselves. You're not telling me the police had very good reason to suspect all those people (plus all the ones who were asked for their ID and did have it with them) of having done something illegal

Those stupid christo-fascist f*ckwits Harry Potter & friends that call themselves our government can go play Quidditch in hell I refuse to cooperate with this new law It reverses the whole basic principle of a justice in a modern society: instead of being innocent until proven guilty, we're now guilty until we can prove we're innocent :puke:

Already a few days ago they threw a 14-year-old girl in jail for almost a day because she forgot her Ausweis. Yeah, that'll teach those damned terrorists

	08-01-2005 15:56									#7
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personal IDs issued by the government exist in my country I have to get one at certain age
I have to provide a picture
There are authorised persons to whom I HAVE to show it if they ask

Probably : I can be checked for any reason, free estimate of such person.

And legally I have to carry it with me wherever I go but no one actually does that.

	08-01-2005 15:58									#8
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion You are set to get them in 2007 I think, so just wait and see.

No, we're set to watch Blair make embarrassing climb downs and policy reversals for an ill thought out knee jerk reaction in the absence of any intelligent responses.

It has long been a tradition in this country that your identity is your own business, not the state's, the monarch's nor the police's, and that they have to provide a reason for enquiring after your identity.

Any forms of identity that you HAVE to carry are linked with things such as entering restricted areas (private businesses, some government buildings, army bases).

If I am a law abiding citizen, going about my lawful business, the state can go and f**k itself frankly, before it demands to know who I am with no just cause.

	08-01-2005 16:30									#9
	Re: Personal ID's, how is it in your country? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by VetLegion In Croatia: You are obliged to get one after you are 16 years old, but you can get it earlier. You have to carry it with you non-stop and everywhere. Police is authorised by law to ask your ID at any time, and you have to show it to them. Penalty: If you get checked for ID and you don't have it with you the fine is about 15 Euro, plus you may get taken to the police station for identity check or the policeman trying to check you can do it by radio if you provided him with personal data. ________ My comment: the enforcement of this is not very orwellian, usually policemen don't ID people for fun. They're mostly polite when they do and after you show them your ID card they go away. Still, many people here, me included, find the practice undefensible. Free people should not be coerced by the state to carry ID's all the time, like branded cattle. Many bring out examples of USA to demonstrate that a society can function without personal ID cards completely, or without them being compulsory (France). So I am interested about both theory and practice in your country. Both, because it can happen that some country has very strict ID regulations but they are not enforced at all, or there can be a country that is a police state without personal ID cards, using other methods. Thanks for replies. You can also vote in the poll, it's quick and messy, so please provide replies too.

Well, in Spain it's in the lines of what you are saying. I believe the mandatory age is 18, thus. ID (called DNI - Documento Nacional de Identidad - National Document for ID) includes a picture and fingerprints. The police can ask you to show it, but I have been asked only one time and it was o.k in my opinion (i was visiting the house of an local important politic here in Spain and the police was expecting ETA to attack that day).

The ID is also used in near all transaction with burocracy, although many times you can alternatively present a passport. Another common uses of it:

-With your credit card in order to show that you are the REAL owner of that card (so if you are stolen your credit card the thief can't use it)
- In any private transaction or contract to identify the person who is signing.
- I can also use the ID to travel to any Schengen signing country
- When you check in a hotel you are forced to show your DNI, so no one can fake a check in a hotel (anti-ETA measure)

I understand the problems a ID migth casuse but I am very used to it and the police is not crazy or arbritary about it.

	08-01-2005 16:34									#10
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quote: Originally posted by yaroslav I understand the problems a ID migth casuse but I am very used to it and the police is not crazy or arbritary about it.

Yet.


However the point is that in the United Kingdom it is being offered virtually as a panacea for the ills of international terrorism, and the negative aspects are being blithely brushed aside by governmental lickspittles.

We all saw how well identity cards worked in the battle against international terrorism in the 70s....

	08-01-2005 16:41									#11
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In Spain it has been mandatory many many years and the police has never been crazy about it since democracy started in Spain (in the dictactorship of stupid Franco it was another issue, though)

I understand that is tiresoming to be forced to carry a document (although this one is a small card), but there are also advantages on it. For instance, in Spain a electronic version of it is being offered so people can pay taxes online, we're very advanced on the whole taxs-over-internet thing.

I am afraid I am not aware about ID in britain against terrorism, but I believe in Spain it has been hepful against ETA, although it was not the reason that created it.

The ID in Spain dates back to 1943.

	08-01-2005 17:20									#12
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quote: Originally posted by yaroslav I understand that is tiresoming to be forced to carry a document (although this one is a small card), but there are also advantages on it. For instance, in Spain a electronic version of it is being offered so people can pay taxes online, we're very advanced on the whole taxs-over-internet thing.

There's a difference between owning a document and being forced to carry it around all day. I've had a passport all my life, it's a simple necessity if you travel as much as I do. And I'm all for electronic passes and the like to facilitate financial transactions and the like. But when I'm taking a stroll to get some fresh air, doing my groceries or going out to watch a movie, I don't want to be forced to have to carry around Ausweis like I'm a criminal or terrorist who's up to no good.

quote: I am afraid I am not aware about ID in britain against terrorism, but I believe in Spain it has been hepful against ETA, although it was not the reason that created it.

Until recently Britain has had the same problems with the IRA that Spain has had with the ETA. Mainland Britain (for once) serves as a shining example for the rest of Europe (and the world) in that it shows that you can perfectly well fight terrorism and still maintain freedom for your citizens at the same time.

	08-01-2005 17:28									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus There's a difference between owning a document and being forced to carry it around all day. I've had a passport all my life, it's a simple necessity if you travel as much as I do. And I'm all for electronic passes and the like to facilitate financial transactions and the like. But when I'm taking a stroll to get some fresh air, doing my groceries or going out to watch a movie, I don't want to be forced to have to carry around Ausweis like I'm a criminal or terrorist who's up to no good.

What is Ausweis? The ID? Were the terrorist or criminals forced to carry a ID in the Netherlands before thtis law?

quote: Until recently Britain has had the same problems with the IRA that Spain has had with the ETA. Mainland Britain (for once) serves as a shining example for the rest of Europe (and the world) in that it shows that you can perfectly well fight terrorism and still maintain freedom for your citizens at the same time.

I know about IRA I don't know though the reference to ID and the 70's. How are they related?

	08-01-2005 17:33									#14
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How exactly freedom is affected by having an ID?

	08-01-2005 17:34									#15
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Not by having it but by being forced to carry it.

	08-01-2005 17:34									#16
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quote: Originally posted by yaroslav What is Ausweis? The ID? Were the terrorist or criminals forced to carry a ID in the Netherlands before thtis law?

Ausweis is German for ID. It's a reference to WWII, when in occupied Europe everyone had to carry Ausweis around wherever they went and the Nazis loved randomly stopping people to ask for it.

Cause that's exactly what they've brought back to the Netherlands now...

	08-01-2005 17:36									#17
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Were the terrorist or criminals forced to carry a ID in the Netherlands before this law?

I don't quite understand why you associate being forced to carry ID with criminals and terrorist

	08-01-2005 17:36									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Thorgal How exactly freedom is affected by having an ID?

Because if you take a stroll to get some air and forgot to take it with you, the cops can arrest you and throw you in jail, or at least give you a hefty fine.

If that's not a restriction of freedom I don't know what is...

	08-01-2005 17:37									#19
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We have ID's, quite usefull I say.

They know everything about you anyway, so stop being naieve, at least now, you know that they know.

I don't get stopped at every corner by a cop to show it or anything like that either.
In this world ( even pre-9/11, remember, that's when terrorism started. ) they are a necessity IMHO.

Do I oppose them from an ideological point of view: Yup, you can bet your behind, not so if I'm realistic though.

	08-01-2005 17:50									#20
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quote: Originally posted by yaroslav Were the terrorist or criminals forced to carry a ID in the Netherlands before this law?

No. I think everyone was obliged to own some kind of ID (not sure if it was legally enforced, but you need it for things like soliciting for a job or social benefits, checking into a hotel, entering an airport, opening a bank account, etc, so practically you can't do without one). But it was never necessary to carry one on you all the time.

quote: I don't quite understand why you associate being forced to carry ID with criminals and terrorist

Because you're violating the law if you don't. Someone who violates the law is commonly known as a criminal. And the reason for passing the law was fighting terrorism, so whenever the cops ask you for ID apparently they think you may be a terrorist...

	08-01-2005 17:51									#21
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I always wonder how people identify themselves in a bank / post office if they don't have a proper ID card.

	08-01-2005 17:52									#22
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quote: Because if you take a stroll to get some air and forgot to take it with you, the cops can arrest you and throw you in jail, or at least give you a hefty fine. If that's not a restriction of freedom I don't know what is...

You could be arrested if you forget to get dressed and you go to the street naked. Is that a restriction of freedom too?

BTW, the police does not ask you for the ID if there is not a very good reason. They do not go for the street saying Achtung! at random.

	08-01-2005 18:00									#23
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- There are authorised persons to whom I HAVE to show it if they ask

- I oppose compulsory personal IDs


I don't HAVE to show the police anything. (Unless they arrest me, I guess.) There are no ID cards. And I don't really see the point of having one either. It's sounds very commie and is just one step closer to 1984 IMO.

If I have to prove who I am I can always use my driver's licence, credit card, passport, etc.

	08-01-2005 18:04									#24
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quote: Originally posted by alva They know everything about you anyway, so stop being naieve, at least now, you know that they know.

They know f*ck all about me, or I wouldn't have to fill in a dozen forms when I want to request a copy of my birth certificate or fill in my taxes

quote: I don't get stopped at every corner by a cop to show it or anything like that either.

That's exactly what I'm afraid will start happening in the Netherlands.

quote: In this world ( even pre-9/11, remember, that's when terrorism started. ) they are a necessity IMHO.

Why? What do they accomplish? Do you think terrorists will now think "oh sh*t, the Netherlans turned into a fortress, we better not go there anymore"? It's just one more in a long line of measures recently to punish the good guys for something the bad guys did. The only thing that this will lead to is far more IDs being lost or stolen, which will of course help terrorists and criminals greatly in securing false IDs. That will not only avoid them getting caught by random police searches, it will also make it easier for them to open bank accounts, enter airports, etc, etc...

	08-01-2005 18:12									#25
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The US one is

only required for a certain activity

has your picture on it

you only getr in trouble for not having it if you are driving

and I oppose compulsory ids

JM

	08-01-2005 18:14									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus That's exactly what I'm afraid will start happening in the Netherlands.

Why ?

What's the difference with being asked for your driver's license and being asked for your personal ID ?

	08-01-2005 18:18									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Flandrien I always wonder how people identify themselves in a bank / post office if they don't have a proper ID card.

As noted before, there's a difference between OWNING an ID card (and using it at specific occasions) and CARRYING it on you 24-7.

quote: Originally posted by Thorgal You could be arrested if you forget to get dressed and you go to the street naked.

Yeah, becuase you wouldn't notice if you were walking on the street butt-naked

quote: BTW, the police does not ask you for the ID if there is not a very good reason. They do not go for the street saying Achtung! at random.

Who says they won't? That's exactly what I'm afraid will happen. The guidelines for this are very vague. Reasons the Justice Department has cited as examples for being allowed to check for ID: traffic monitoring, being in the facinity of the scene of a crime or accident, maintaining public order, solving crime. At any point in time, at least 2 of those reasons can be invoked.

A researcher already did an experiment by letting some guys in a big car drive past a cafe terrace a few times. When the guys were white, nothing happened. When the guys were Middle Eastern immigrants, the cops were there in no time to ask for their IDs. Tell me that's not random... (Well, actually it's not -- it's racism, which is even worse).

	08-01-2005 18:26									#28
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Same as Eli, but I have to say that AFAIK, Driver's licenses can be shown instead.

I have nothing against them.

	08-01-2005 18:26									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Flandrien Why ? What's the difference with being asked for your driver's license and being asked for your personal ID ?

When I'm driving a car they may ask for my driver's licence, providing they caught me violating traffic laws or they're doing regulated alcohol inspections (keyword: regulated) and the like.

There's a difference between that and being allowed to randomly stop people in the street and ask them for ID, even if they're weeding their garden, just taking a stroll, or doing their groceries, minding their own business...

	08-01-2005 18:31									#30
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quote: There's a difference between that and being allowed to randomly stop people in the street and ask them for ID, even if they're weeding their garden, just taking a stroll, or doing their groceries, minding their own business...

Doesn't happen, WWII is past us for some time now.
Just as before, a cop needs a valid reason to stop you, why would having an ID card make any difference?