11-01-2005 19:09									#121
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quote: 'To be anonymous, to go privately, to move residence without telling the authorities is a fundamental liberty which is about to be taken from us. People may not choose to exercise this entitlement to privacy, or see the point of it, but once it's gone and a vast database is built, eventually to be accessed by every tentacle of the government machine, we will never be able to claw it back. We are about to surrender a right which is precious, rare even in western democracies, and profoundly emblematic of our culture and civilisation.'

What's the connection between that and IDs?

	11-01-2005 21:57									#122
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BTW, I was wrong. Over here, ID cards are not compulsory. However, identity checks can be performed as a "preventive measure" (if the policeman thinks you're about to commit something illegal, for example ), and if you neither have IDs, driver's licence, or family registry with you, the judicial procedure to control your identity will commence.

Of course, brown people are always suspected of being illegal immigrants, so they get checked all the time

	11-01-2005 22:02									#123
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Exactly!

	11-01-2005 22:15									#124
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MikeH:
Can your policemen control the identity of the citizens as a "preventive measure", or must they be inquiring on an actual crime to begin these checks?

What happens if you are suspected in a crime (thus legitimately prompting identity checks on you), but have none of the voluntary IDs?

	11-01-2005 22:46									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Anything proposed by that scum-sucking bastard Blair should be abandoned and he should be shot.

Such as the minimum wage, increased spending on health and education, increased child benefit and the family tax credit?

	11-01-2005 22:49									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Can your policemen control the identity of the citizens as a "preventive measure", or must they be inquiring on an actual crime to begin these checks? What happens if you are suspected in a crime (thus legitimately prompting identity checks on you), but have none of the voluntary IDs?

Police can only request identification if they have reasonable suspicion that an offence has ben committed (or is likely to be committed). Such as being black in a residential area, for example.

Not having ID is not a crime. You can be arrested if a policeman suspects you of providing false ID, but making charges stick would be tricky.

	11-01-2005 22:58									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Police can only request identification if they have reasonable suspicion that an offence has ben committed (or is likely to be committed). Such as being black in a residential area, for example.

So far, that's identical to France.

quote: Not having ID is not a crime. You can be arrested if a policeman suspects you of providing false ID, but making charges stick would be tricky.

I don't know if it is a crime here either (I haven't seen any legal punishment for that), but once they ask for your identity, the police will keep you until they get it - the legal procedure is about retrieving your identity, but I don't know if you're supposed to be punished after that.

Fortunately, should you find the right policemen, your stay at the police station can be fantastically unpleasant

	12-01-2005 00:08									#128
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quote: Of course, brown people are always suspected of being illegal immigrants, so they get checked all the time

You see, if you had IDs mandatory, brown people would get hassled much less. Just show an ID, and be on your way.

	12-01-2005 00:43									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel You see, if you had IDs mandatory, brown people would get hassled much less. Just show an ID, and be on your way.

For all intent and purposes, IDs are mandatory in fact in France, even if they're not in law. I haven't met anybody who hasn't one. It's indeed not much of a hassle if a control happens once every blue moon. It becomes a constant humiliation when you are specifically singled out because of your skin, and are prompted to show your ID every day or so.

Besides, if you don't have your papers at hand (forgot to take the wallet, or have the habit of never taking the wallet without a good reason for it), the hassle increases considerably. Again, it's not that much of a problem when you're rarely controlled. But the occurence becomes very unpleasant when such controls are frequent

	12-01-2005 00:50									#130
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quote: Besides, if you don't have your papers at hand (forgot to take the wallet, or have the habit of never taking the wallet without a good reason for it), the hassle increases considerably. Again, it's not that much of a problem when you're rarely controlled. But the occurence becomes very unpleasant when such controls are frequent

But they aren't really. I get my license checked by police maybe twice a year, for example. (And I wasn't doing anything wrong, of course)

	12-01-2005 00:55									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel But they aren't really. I get my license checked by police maybe twice a year, for example. (And I wasn't doing anything wrong, of course)

You're white, silly.

	12-01-2005 01:31									#132
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I'm less concerned about the freedom aspect than the economic aspects of the UK ID card scheme. Put simply, it's an extravagant, obnoxious piece of bureaucratic busy-work that will have absolutely no effect whatsoever on immigration, crime or anything else.

It's heart-breaking for people like myself, who think that the government can work to improve peoples lives, to see money being squandered in such a way. It would be better if the government built three more Millennium Domes than go ahead with this.

	12-01-2005 01:33									#133
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quote: You're white, silly.

Israeli police are hardly Arian posterboys ( these are undercover)

Betcha you wouldn't know which one is the palestinian and which one is the border patrol guard, without the uniform.
Israeli police on a visit in the US:



So no, it doesn't have anything to do with my ethnicity, since they say jackshit in this country.

	12-01-2005 03:23									#134
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It is interesting that Anglophone countries (minus HK) seem to have similar laws and views on this.

Just to be clear, I think you can refuse to give your ID to a policeman, if you wish. They might then arrest you and bring you down to the police station for identification by other means, but I don't think you can be arrested specifically for refusing to show your ID.

On the other hand, you can be arrested and charged for refusing to identify yourself by name.

	12-01-2005 03:26									#135
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That very last picture kinda crystalizes one of the main flaws behind compulsary ID.

Its another of the 'them' + 'us' tools used by governments to build the barriers used to control our lives for their own (often) murky ends

	12-01-2005 03:27									#136
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quote: Originally posted by DanS It is interesting that Anglophone countries (minus HK) seem to have similar laws and views on this.

The Anglo tradition of liberalism is something very specific. The rest of the west rather has a perspective of liberalism that is inherited of French enlightenment (considering that these ideas spread on all of Europe but Britain through pre-revolution cultural superiority and then Napoleon's conquests).

The rest of the world has its own traditions regarding freedom from the State, but these traditions are rarely any liberal.

	12-01-2005 03:31									#137
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quote: The Anglo tradition of liberalism is something very specific. The rest of the west rather has a perspective of liberalism that is inherited of French enlightenment (considering that these ideas spread on all of Europe but Britain through pre-revolution cultural superiority and then Napoleon's conquests).

Yes, this fact is very interesting and I agree with you. Other subtle differences due to the different enlightenment traditions exist to this day, surprisingly.

I'd be curious to know about New Zealand and India's systems.

	12-01-2005 04:13									#138
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no iD card in NZ

India was a colony so probably has it

	12-01-2005 06:19									#139
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NZ, Canada, Oz weren't colonies?

	12-01-2005 07:06									#140
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Nope, they were dominions and their inhabitants were self governing British citizens with all the rights of British citizens. Australian held British passports up till the 1950's. Indians didn't.

This change of status resulted from lessons learned from the mismanagement of the American colonies.

	12-01-2005 07:12									#141
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They were colonies first.

	12-01-2005 08:01									#142
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I'm talking about at the time of self government, not the beginning.

	12-01-2005 10:06									#143
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quote: Originally posted by alva Doesn't happen, WWII is past us for some time now. Just as before, a cop needs a valid reason to stop you, why would having an ID card make any difference?

If a cop can already stop you for a valid reason, what's the added benefit of compulsory IDs?

	12-01-2005 10:10									#144
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quote: Originally posted by alva Do you feel - or even are - less free carrying a passport ?

This is something we see often from political refugees coming to Canada, they're affraid of whatever-you-may-think-of and decide to always carry their passport with them.

	12-01-2005 10:24									#145
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What happens if they lose their passport? Are they basically screwed?

quote: This change of status resulted from lessons learned from the mismanagement of the American colonies.

Ah, I see. Thanks. I never knew why y'all were so docile to the crown.

	12-01-2005 11:15									#146
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quote: Originally posted by DanS What happens if they lose their passport? Are they basically screwed?

Errr... not at all. The point was that Canada does not require anyone to carry any ID, but that refugees coming from oppressive regimes still do it because they've become paranoid... well, doesn't that suggest how great it is to be required to carry ID?

	12-01-2005 11:46									#147
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Ah, I see. Thanks. I never knew why y'all were so docile to the crown.

Its really hard to see why the US colonies would have broken away from Britain if complaints about taxation without representation etc. had been met, as they were in Australia, Canada, South Africa and NZ. You might have ended up with a United States of North America under the British crown.

	12-01-2005 15:46									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: Of course, brown people are always suspected of being illegal immigrants, so they get checked all the time You see, if you had IDs mandatory, brown people would get hassled much less. Just show an ID, and be on your way.

I still don't think you get it, being asked for your ID is the hassle! At the moment they can't be, but if you introduced it you'd suddenly have a new power for the police to exploit.