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Urban Ranger
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Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic
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quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom
It has long been a tradition in this country that your identity is your own business, not the state's, the monarch's nor the police's, and that they have to provide a reason for enquiring after your identity. |
Here in Hong Kong everybody is required to carry an ID card courtesy of our former British overlords.
Long long time ago we were issued ID cards but not legally required to carry with them wherever we went. Then some time back, starting with the surge of Vietnamese boat people IIRC, we would need to have our ID cards about us at all times when we're outside, and that the police could check anyone at anytime.
Initially, an ID card only had a photo. Then, several years ago, some idiot came up with the idea of a smart card ID card, so everybody would need to exchange the old one for the stupid card ID card, which stores thumb prints among other things.
Here you need an ID card to open a bank account, get a credit card, get your passport, get a job, etc.
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Jon Miller
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well, yes
I see your point
it is just that driver licenses make sense to me
because a lo tof people die when oyu dont have them
JM
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Thorgal
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Tarifa, Cádiz.
Jan 2002
time: 05:32
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quote:
If they don't, how will people carrying IDs help? |
If there are 200 people around do you imagine the police accompanying each one to his house to verify his identity? Or taking you to police station until your identity is confirmed somehow? In such case the ID would be a matter of comfort for everyone not only in a crimen scenery but in any situation where identification is needed
OTOH, speaking about ID itself, I dont know other countries but in Spain for instance police has fingerprints of every citizen obtained through ID in a database, so they can know a fingerprint owner in a matter of minutes even if they has no clue about who is the criminal. You cant register at a hotel without presenting your ID. Hotels are networked with police so they can know where anybody is instantly.
In general ID number is required in all public or privated document where is necessary leaving note of the applicant's personal identity in a simple and univocal manner.
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Locutus
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ACS CTP1/2 Manager & Civ4 Co-Manager
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Hengelo, The Netherlands
Nov 1999
time: 06:32
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quote:
Originally posted by alva
People had the same view on things when seat-belts became mandatory. |
By not carrying seatbelts you could fly out of a car window and are thus a danger to other people. Who am I endangering by not carrying a passpord?
quote:
- New laws will probably make some cops overzealus |
Various police representative have said in the media that this sort of stuff may happen more often if people don't learn to carry their ID. The law will be enforced strictly, now AND in the future. IMO this will last as long as the current explosive social situation of intolerance and hatred. In other words, a long time...
quote:
Though that particularly incident is regrettable and the officers involved should be punished |
That's exactly the problem. I would agree with this and if this happend I would be happy. However, the police and from what I can tell most of the people in this country disagree with this completely (or at least they're been no real outcry over this, as there should have been). No action whatsoever is being taken against the officiers in question. They acted fully within their jurisdiction, never did do anything wrong. Noone seems to be regretting this situation, it is now apparently acceptable that this happens.
quote:
Why not do as we do and get a ID system in place, much easier...  |
Don't tell me, tell the government... I've been arguing for years for a proper all-in-one ID system. I carry around almost a dozen cards for various purposes already (from passpord to bankpass to bus card; plus I have 3 different cards for my uni alone!), it can't be that hard to integrate them all into one multi-purpose card (using a compartmentised design so that there doesn't have to be any fear of Big Brother situations).
quote:
So me having an ID ( and the fact that they drove by with the lady in question telling them it wasn't us) got us out of the situation in a matter of minutes insteead of having to go to the police-station etc.
So in this case, I could argue that my freedom was less infrinched upon due to my freedom being limited by having to carry a mandotory ID.  |
No, you had to choice on whether or not to carry the ID. We don't have the choice, unless you count jailtime as a viable option...
quote:
Not only did this save some of my time but also that of the cops which they can spend on...catching real criminals. |
So why are the randomly stopping people in the street to ask for their ID? Plus, in 99% of cases just callin in to the station to check if the data matches with the computer is sufficient.
But again most importantly: why do I have to go out of my way to prove I'm not a criminal? That's a complete reversal of the justice system. The police has the duty to prove I *am* one. The initiative lies with the cops (that's their job, that's what I pay my hefty taxes for), not the civilians.
quote:
Yes, they will..the first two weeks. |
No, that's the problem. Considering the climate here I know it will be much longer than that. The cops have become much stricter on many issues. Squatters used to be respected as long as they didn't bother anyone, noone ever made a big deal out of riding a bike without proper lighting or ignoring a red light on a quiet crossing. The cops have become much stricter on everything for years now, and many people in this country seem to be cheering them on (especially the right-wing conservatives in their big houses and mercedeses -- funny how the only thing these people seem to complain about is that the cops are so strict on speeding). Of course, it's mostly the petty crimes that get dealt with, the white collar criminals can still go their merry way, even more now than in the past.
You can bet your arse that the cops will be cracking down on this hard time for years to come, fines are an excellent form of extra income in this time where funds are being cut but a higher number of criminals is expected to be caught (and in the statistics that count no differentation is being made between different forms of crime)...
quote:
Eugh, we already have ID's, so why move to this place?   |
Like you said, you've only been asked for your ID once in your life. I've been asked once in the one week that the law has been in force.
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Locutus
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ACS CTP1/2 Manager & Civ4 Co-Manager
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Hengelo, The Netherlands
Nov 1999
time: 06:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Shogun Gunner
When you are ready to trade safety and the other benefits of government, then sure, you don't need to have/carry an ID. |
What benefits? Was the Netherlands before January 1st less safe than it is now? Is Britain less safe because it doesn't oblige its citizens to carry ID cards wherever they go? Are less crimes being commited, are criminals finding different lines of work because of this? Are less people's life in danger simply because they carry cards? Of course not, it just provided a false sense of security, which actually makes it easier to commit crimes (and to top it off also makes more lost/stolen identity cards available to criminals)...
quote:
Originally posted by alva
AFAIK, a cop here is not allowed to ask for ID randomly.
So there is a problem with how this particular law was made and how it is being implemented, not with ID cards as such.
As with anything, abuse is right around the corner. |
I cited examples of reasons earlier in the thread: they are very general and can be applied at any time. Again I refer to my example of the ME guys just hanging around. Never mind that they were immigrants, they were just hanging around, not bothering anyone, not causing any trouble. Yet the got stopped. The reason that a cop supposedly has to have were stretched to include doing nothing. So yes, effectively cops can ask for IDs at random, at least here in the Netherlands with this new law.
Again, yes, the existance IDs cards in themselves is OK. However, being forced to be able to show them at ANY time is by definition a reversal of the justice system. If the cops have a good reason to see the card, fine, they can see it. But that doesn't mean you should be thrown in jail for not carrying it on you. That means the cops should give you a chance to get your card from home or wheverer you have it.
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Thorgal
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Tarifa, Cádiz.
Jan 2002
time: 05:32
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quote:
No need to accompany them all home or whatever. Just ask for their name, date of birth and address and check over intercom with the station if this data matches with the computer. Only the mismatches need further attention. |
But you could give the data of other person. It is not a secure method.
quote:
Plus, what gives the police the right to just suspect 200 perfectly innocent people? (With maybe one or two exceptions, though if the person(s) in question has any sense he fled the scene long before the cops arrived.) In this country, at least until recently, there actually had to be some form of (preliminary) evidence before questioning someone as a (potential) suspect is allowed. Asking for a witness testimony is one thing, but you don't need someone's identity to do that... |
Of course you need. A testimony is nothing without a person ratifying it. Can you imagine a policeman saying at the trial: "i remember somebody at crime scenery saying me Mr X killed MR Y"
quote:
That system has worked fine in this country for 60 years (our crime rates have always been among the lowest in Europe), so why change the law and force those 200 people to suddenly have to disprove that they commited that crime? |
It has nothing to do. It depends of a lot of factors. I mean in Spain under Franco there was virtually not crime. Hardly a example, however...
In any case...
quote:
The study says that the percentage of people who were victims of crime in a single year is "a simple but robust" way of comparing records on crime. The latest figures show the countries fall into three bands:
• England and Wales, Australia, The Netherlands and Sweden had victim rates above 24 per cent;
• Canada, Scotland, Denmark, Poland, Belgium, France and the US had rates between 20 and 24 per cent;
• Spain, Switzerland, Portugal, Japan and Northern Ireland all had rates under 20 per cent. |
http://www.car-crime.com/crime_rate.htm
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:32
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haha! turns out us Patriot-Act having Americans who only require an ID to drive (a document that really only says that you passed the driving tests) have more freedom than you Europeans!
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Kassiopeia
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Jyväskylä, Finland
Jul 2001
time: 07:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Pekka
We have national IDs in the form of Social Security what ever cards. Everyone has them. But no, you don't need to carry ID with you. |
The SS card isn't actually an ID per se. You can have an SS card without a picture in it, and that doesn't qualify as an ID the same way an SS card with a pic, a passport, an electronic ID card or a passport would. Although when I tried to use my picless SS card as an ID in the draft, the official stared at me for a moment and then accepted it. 
quote:
I don't know if the cops can just ask you for your ID for no reason. I think they can't. I mean of course they CAN, but they can't demand it I believe. Unless there's a reasonable reason to suspect you. Which is kind of a.. in the air kind of reason, but really you don't have to carry. |
My understanding is that you don't have to carry any kind of ID on you, suspected of something or not. What would be the point? I'm not sure how the SS card is mandatory; you need it to get service from the National Health Service and the like, but I'm not sure if it's required by law. I got my first SS card when I was five, my sister when she was three. *shrug*
quote:
In fact Not too long ago I had a situation where I had no valid ID card of any kind (driver's license, passport) with picutre on it. |
Ditto, as I was under 18 and hadn't needed one ever before. I had to get one to get my driver's licence (  ) so I had to get a passport. Now I have both. The electronic ID card is some sort of bastardization between the driver's licence and the passport, you can travel with it in the Schengen countries whereas a driver's licence isn't a travel document. But usually it's cheaper on the long run to just get a passport.
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:32
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quote:
So the pavement is your property? You can walk on your property without a license(ID) too. |
in the USA, land of the free, you can walk on your property without having an ID.
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:32
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Kuci:
driver's licences are not compulsory. I still don't have one.
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Locutus
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ACS CTP1/2 Manager & Civ4 Co-Manager
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Hengelo, The Netherlands
Nov 1999
time: 06:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Thorgal
But you could give the data of other person. It is not a secure method. |
So tell me, of how many people can you give me detailed info about their identity, such as full name, date of birth, city of birth, current address? And remember that a police computer system typically includes a photo or at least basic info on height, eye colours, etc. So at most you could give yourself out as your own brother or something, but then the cops would still be able to track you down easy enough.
Only if there are strong reasons to suspect someone is lying should cops be allowed to demand to see actual proof of someone's identity.
And of course, you're forgetting that IDs can be forged, so that doesn't change anything in the new system. As I said several times before, in the new system acquiring false IDs will only become easier.
Again, the old system has worked fine in the Netherlands for a long time. The only reason why it's being changed is mass paranoia and xenophobia.
quote:
Of course you need. A testimony is nothing without a person ratifying it. Can you imagine a policeman saying at the trial: "i remember somebody at crime scenery saying me Mr X killed MR Y" |
So you leave your name and phone number...
quote:
It has nothing to do. It depends of a lot of factors. I mean in Spain under Franco there was virtually not crime. Hardly a example, however... |
It has everything to do with it. 'If it ain't broken, don't fix it'. Especially not if this touches fundamental liberties.
Yeah, because a victim rate says everything about how many crimes are being commited
As far as those statistics go, they only look at a small subgroup of crimes and are based on the notoriously unreliable method of the survey. If you look at some of the numbers the UN collected (e.g. http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/crime...ey_seventh.html), Netherlands is not doing poorly. Because it's a lot of raw data to sift through, I made a quick and rough overview of the total number of convictions per 100,000 inhabitants in the late 1990s for most Western/European countries (where numbers are known):
New Zealand: 2600
UK: 2600
Finland: 1700
Denmark: 1300
Canada: 1000
France: 1000
Hungary: 1000
Switzerland: 1000
Greece: 800
Russia: 800
Germany: 700
Czech R: 600
Iceland: 600
Israel 600
Netherlands: 600
Sweden: 600
Italy: 500
Latvia: 500
Lithuania: 500
Portugal: 500
Ukraine: 500
Romania: 400
Slovakia: 400
Norway: 300
Slovenia: 300
Spain: 300
Note that in Eastern Europe, crime is swittly on the rise and the numbers are probably considerably higher by now, whereas in the Netherlands the numbers have fallen 5 years in a row (as was in the Dutch news just yesterday).
Of course, there's still plenty of things wrong with using that statistic as proof of anything (after all, there are "lies, damn lies and statistics"), but the point is that overall the Netherlands is not doing poorly in terms of crime fighting, and the numbers have been falling years without the need of throwing fundamental liberties out the door.
The only reason such measures are being taken in the Netherlands right now is because people feel less safe, not because they are. But if people feel less safe when they're e.g. near a group of immigrant youth (which is in the Dutch discussions on the matter an often cited example), is that a problem with the immigrant youth or with the people who fear them?
quote:
Originally posted by Albert Speer
haha! turns out us Patriot-Act having Americans who only require an ID to drive (a document that really only says that you passed the driving tests) have more freedom than you Europeans! |
Yes, because if you do better in one issue, you must by definition do better in all
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Thorgal
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Tarifa, Cádiz.
Jan 2002
time: 05:32
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quote:
And of course, you're forgetting that IDs can be forged, so that doesn't change anything in the new system. As I said several times before, in the new system acquiring false IDs will only become easier. |
I dont know how it works in Netherlands. But to falsificate a spanish DNI card is as difficult as to falsificate money. In fact ID cards are made by the same manufacture what makes the money. So, it is not like a library card.
About statistics each country has his particularities. For instance most crimes are drugs related. IIRC drugs laws in Netherland are much more permissive than in most countries (and I agree with Netherlands in this). So what is considered crime in many countries is legal in Netherlands. In this case i think a victims rate would be more accurated.
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VetLegion
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I didn't read all the replies yet, so just a quick reply to alva:
man, why do you hate freedom?
Also, Azazel:
Anything you need a licence to do is not your fundamental right. See example under freedom of speech, how would that work with a licensing system?
And driving a car can one day require no licence, why not, but in the meantime it is a privilege of those who pass the exams, not a right of everyone.
In most countries, constitutions protect freedom of movement as a basic right, you can't parallel that with needing passports to move between countries.
Constitutions also usually have a provision that rights can be limited for protection of public health, morale, or in an emergency.
None of which is the case with compulsory ID.
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VetLegion
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Locutus said it well: compulsory ID creates a presumption of everyone being guilty until proven innocent. That is unacceptible.
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VetLegion
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Also, about terrorism. Didn't guys who commited attacks on 11.9.2001. have regular (1) passports, (2) driver's licences and perhaps even (3) piloting licences? If three licences didn't prevent the attacks, I don't see how a fourth would.
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BlackCat
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We have no identity cards except a health insurance card with no pics and it is only used when visting medical care.
There are no plans to introduce such a thing.
You are obliged to give name, adress and person id (birthday + number) if asked by police, but they need a reason to ask and you don't have to prove the correctness by any papers.
Edit : couldn't vote - no match.
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Jon Miller
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doesn't mean they shoudl have the rights of individuals
otherwise going out of business would be very strange
also, they don't have teh same spirit that people do
Jon Miller
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08-01-2005 20:40
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