13-01-2005 23:53									#61
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GePap already slaughtered those arguments.

She made the right decisions because now 50,000 people are alive thanks to her decisions. Had Adama's decision been followed, humanity would currently be extinct. Had she followed Apollo's recommendation right away, only 2000+ would be alive. Does it take any complicated math to show that 50,000 alive people > 2000 alive people > no alive people?

Your argument re: Cylon tech versus a BS is odd, considering the BSG is outdated technology. As the battle at Ragnar shows, the Cylons have little problem causing damage. But the DID know the Cylons outnumbered them exponentially. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that one BS isn't going to be able to take on a huge Cylon fleet. It would be utter suicide.

And you're dead wrong, the President was NOT about going out in a blaze of glory. She thought there was time to rescue everyone before the Cylons attacked. When the captain explained that this was not so, she made the tough decision to leave. What's wrong about that?

Again, her decisions = 50K alive humans who at least have a chance of survival.

Your quarterbacking = Humans all dead.

Gee, which are better decisions?

	14-01-2005 00:05									#62
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quote: Your argument re: Cylon tech versus a BS is odd, considering the BSG is outdated technology. As the battle at Ragnar shows, the Cylons have little problem causing damage. But the DID know the Cylons outnumbered them exponentially. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that one BS isn't going to be able to take on a huge Cylon fleet. It would be utter suicide.

You must have a hard time watching Star Wars.

And when exactly was the Galactica taking on the entire Cylon fleet? During the entire movie we only ever see three of four base stars in one place, and that was after the spies gave her position away. Adama turned to fight ONE basestar, and he himself made the correct decision to retreat after another showed up.

What actually happened was that the Prez wanted to stay even after the Cylons had showed up, and not abandon the rest of the civilians. Captain Adama did everything but ***** slap the crying snob before making her leave.

	14-01-2005 00:14									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos You must have a hard time watching Star Wars.

Star Wars is hardly a great example of realism. And if it hadn't been for the Force, where would the rebels be? Dead as dodos. And they also had far more assetts than Adama did to fight the Cylons.

quote: And when exactly was the Galactica taking on the entire Cylon fleet? During the entire movie we only ever see three of four base stars in one place, and that was after the spies gave her position away. Adama turned to fight ONE basestar, and he himself made the correct decision to retreat after another showed up.

Adama's intention, as he initially stated to the president, was to leave ragnar and counterattack. So eventually he would have to engage the far superior Cylon numbers with just one ship. They knew the Cylons had vast numbers, thanks to the reports of the attacks on the colonies, which were all simultaneous. Even assuming there was only one base star per colony attack, that's 12 base stars vs. 1 BS, not to mention exponentially more fighters. Considering how well the vipers fared at ragnar (not too well), they would be demolished in no time.

quote: What actually happened was that the Prez wanted to stay even after the Cylons had showed up, and not abandon the rest of the civilians. Captain Adama did everything but ***** slap the crying snob before making her leave.

Huh? That's total BS. This is referring to the leaving behind the sublight ships, not Ragnar. And all Apollo did was explain the reality to her, and she said go, BEFORE the cylons arrived. There wasn't ANY discussion AFTER the Cylons showed up--when the Cylons arrived, the ships IMMEDIATELY jumped--all it showed was the President sitting in her seat looking upset. You seem to be making up scenes in the movie that weren't there!

	14-01-2005 00:36									#64
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Just go to the official website at http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/ You can see pics of the characters and the ships.

They look cool I like especially the new basestar design. Only the raptor strike craft could look a bit better IMO....

	14-01-2005 00:39									#65
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quote: Star Wars is hardly a great example of realism. And if it hadn't been for the Force, where would the rebels be? Dead as dodos. And they also had far more assetts than Adama did to fight the Cylons.

I was refering to the 1 million to one warship superiority the Empire enjoyed. Force had nothing to do with that. In fact they never explained what happened to all those ships.

You think BSG has any better claim to reality? Interesting.

	14-01-2005 01:07									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos I was refering to the 1 million to one warship superiority the Empire enjoyed. Force had nothing to do with that. In fact they never explained what happened to all those ships.

It is covered in the Zahn books and others. Without the Emperor, the Imps fraction into civil war. By that point, the rebels had a lot more support and could compete.

I thought you were referring to Ep 3 and the Death Star battle. If it hadn't been for the Force, the rebels certainly would have been dusted.

But it's still not a good analogy.

quote: You think BSG has any better claim to reality? Interesting.

In that there is no Force, yes. I haven't seen any overt mysticism in BSG so far. But the depiction of them facing hopeless odds is certainly more realistic. I would agree that, by all rights, the Empire shouldn't have fallen as it did. But remember that much of that depended on ridiculously unbelievable luck and Imperial stupidity.

So far, the Cylons seem to not have such things working against them, although the escape of the scientist is a potential Achilles Heel. But nobody but the scientist knows about that issue yet.

	14-01-2005 02:57									#67
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What the hell is the point of Star Wars comparisons? This is not star wars- why not make comparisons to real life, heck, just as valid- heck, both are equally absurd, since only working within the internal logic of the situation makes sense.

In the movie they mention that 30 Battlestars had been destroyed- obviously, even knowing that they had an ace up their sleves, the Cylons certainly had to be able to handle say a third of that- and one assumed modern Battlestars are more powerfull than an old, museum piece- hence, the Galactica would not have a chance in HELL of doing much. Its obvious that just a few nukes are powerful enough to take out a ship like the Galactica- we see from the show one single cylon fighter being able to carry mutiple warheads- (very sensible), so one assumes the cylons have more than enough firepower to decimate the Galactica.

As for the notion of running being insane, not only have I shown why that is wrong, but in the most obvious sense, whats the point of producing one movie based on Galactica and not a whole series? (cause Adama Strike Back would hardly last beyond one episode, unless it went into the realm of the utterly absurd)

	14-01-2005 03:16									#68
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The original intent was to make only the movie, most of the produces did not think the was enough intrest beyone the "mini-series."

	14-01-2005 03:21									#69
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Defintley the tension between Edward James Olmos and the President has been setup up REALLY well.

Even though the Cylon spy is highly hittable, I think her performance is truly outstanding, the way she appears and makes tha scientist go mad at times, that's another solid interaction.

	14-01-2005 03:23									#70
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Here you go MikeH

Attachment: cylon2.jpg
This has been downloaded 84 time(s).

	14-01-2005 03:25									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos The original intent was to make only the movie, most of the produces did not think the was enough intrest beyone the "mini-series."

No it was not: this movie first aired months ago, and even then they made it clear that this was the start of a series.

BUt why argue the point, since you would have NO way of knowing what the intentions of the producers were anyways, so you are talking out of your ass.

	14-01-2005 06:49									#72
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quote: Originally posted by GePap No it was not: this movie first aired months ago, and even then they made it clear that this was the start of a series. BUt why argue the point, since you would have NO way of knowing what the intentions of the producers were anyways, so you are talking out of your ass.

http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-...01/05/11.45.sfc

quote: Moore: Galactica Up In Air Ronald D. Moore, executive producer of SCI FI Channel's hit miniseries Battlestar Galactica, told the SyFy Portal Web site that he's prepping a proposed series, but that no decision has been made on whether it will go forward. The "jury is still out" on whether SCI FI will pick up the highly rated miniseries as a full-blown series, Moore told the site. "We're still in discussions with the network," Moore said. "The actors' contracts have been extended until the end of January (that is the time period in which their options for series can be picked up), and I've been working on the show bible and the first few episodes in anticipation of a possible order." He added, "It's a complicated, ambitious show, and SCI FI Channel wants to understand all the economic implications before going to series—pretty standard network procedure—but I'm hopeful we'll get the pickup." Moore also confirmed comments he previously made to IGN FilmForce that he will not be returning as a producer of HBO's fantasy series Carnivale, the site reported. "I won't be returning to Carnivale for its second season, as I decided to concentrate on development and hopefully a BSG series," Moore said.

Network execs make decisions based mostly on economics and ratings: If they don't feel the ratings justify the expense, they won't do it. The miniseries most certainly was a testing-of-the-waters production to see if there'd be enough interest afterwards to make a full-blown remade series of BSG02. The diehard original fans would scream bloody murder if the mini was too botched and likely damage the receptiveness of a series. That didn't happen and so now we have a series.

	14-01-2005 07:42									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Defintley the tension between Edward James Olmos and the President has been setup up REALLY well. Even though the Cylon spy is highly hittable, I think her performance is truly outstanding, the way she appears and makes tha scientist go mad at times, that's another solid interaction.

He is mad. She's not aboard the galactica.

	14-01-2005 08:01									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov It is covered in the Zahn books and others.

that isn't Canon though.

The thrust of our argument is thus:
Said people are hopelessly out matched because the Cylons most likely have outposts, colonies, and manufacturing worlds all over the place. Run and they die, fight and they die. Barring Deus Ex Machina in either case(some as yet undiscovered critical cylon flaw in the case of the fight, or the real example of the cylon chick helping Baltar in the case of running) they lose. They built the cylons up too much in the miniseries.

	14-01-2005 08:41									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha The thrust of our argument is thus: Said people are hopelessly out matched because the Cylons most likely have outposts, colonies, and manufacturing worlds all over the place.

We can stop right there. They don't know that for certain. It is certain that if they engage the Cylons, they will die. So, as Gepap already mentioned, one course of action has a 100% chance of death while the other has an unknown, although potentially high chance of death. So the latter is still the smarter decision. Not rocket science.

You're making a lot of assumptions about how built up the Cylons are. We don't know any of that for sure.

Space is very, very, very big and very, very, very empty. Even if the Cylons had a million ships, the BSG fleet could still successfully elude them. There are hundreds of billions of potential places to hide, after all.

	14-01-2005 08:41									#76
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@Whoha
But if the Cylons had built up all over the place as you say, then wouldn't the 12 Colonies have noticed? That's another shoddy part of the BSG universe that I find absolutely loathsome: Humanity, advanced and star-faring as it is, is limited to one frelling planetary system of 12 planets and umpteen moons/satellites? Wtf is that? If that's the case, then why, after 40 some odd years, didn't the Cylons have the ability to completely wipe out every last vestige of Humanity? Obviously, the attack wasn't simultaneous but staggered, though no less devastating. They should have been able to completely swarm Humanity with no survivors escaping. As I said before I absolutely loathe stories describing star-faring civilizations that live solely in one star system inspite of their FTL capabilities. In the case of BSG02 I can over look it for the time being. It doesn't detract too much imo.

Edit: xpost

	14-01-2005 10:40									#77
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH He is mad. She's not aboard the galactica.

Yep

	14-01-2005 14:33									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Here you go MikeH

Thanks.

	14-01-2005 18:50									#79
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quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs Network execs make decisions based mostly on economics and ratings: If they don't feel the ratings justify the expense, they won't do it. The miniseries most certainly was a testing-of-the-waters production to see if there'd be enough interest afterwards to make a full-blown remade series of BSG02. The diehard original fans would scream bloody murder if the mini was too botched and likely damage the receptiveness of a series. That didn't happen and so now we have a series.

Well, thank you for making my point: the movie was intended as a test flag, and hence why it is open ended-because they wanted to see if a series would follow. Having the crew kill themselves in some gigantic and suicidal final attack would have meant no possibility of a real series afterwards.

	14-01-2005 18:55									#80
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On the Cyclons having some immense empire- why would anyone think so? If they had such overwhelming forces to the entirety of humanity, why go through all the deception and count on a computer virus to win you the day? Just blow the idiots out of space-not like the Cylons would care about some temporary loses, now would they?

The fact that the main cylon strategy was based on deception and stealth would make it seem to me that the Cylons were not strong enough to take on the whole human empire by open force of arms. But once they had the ace in the whole, their forces were enough to deal a death blow. That of course does not change the fact that it is silly to think that one single museum piece will all of a sudden be enough to defeat the cylon fleet.

	14-01-2005 19:05									#81
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I think the idea that Adama wanted to continue fighting makes complete sense from this old soldiers perspective. That he chose to do otherwise, once he realized that his duty was to protect the remnants of humanity not to continue fighting a useless action, speaks to the complexity of the character.

	14-01-2005 20:38									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov We can stop right there. They don't know that for certain. It is certain that if they engage the Cylons, they will die. So, as Gepap already mentioned, one course of action has a 100% chance of death while the other has an unknown, although potentially high chance of death. So the latter is still the smarter decision. Not rocket science. You're making a lot of assumptions about how built up the Cylons are. We don't know any of that for sure. Space is very, very, very big and very, very, very empty. Even if the Cylons had a million ships, the BSG fleet could still successfully elude them. There are hundreds of billions of potential places to hide, after all.

the cylon 1 cpu fighters are making routine ftl jumps, it is a safe bet that they have space mapped out. More then that they managed to totally redesign from the ground up every single ship and fighter that they have.

The fleet can't hide in empty space, they need food fuel,water and eventually munitions. habitable planets are going to be rare enough to be worth putting a single listening device for them.

quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs @Whoha But if the Cylons had built up all over the place as you say, then wouldn't the 12 Colonies have noticed?

they hadn't done an FTL jump in 22 years according to the XO. It seems that they were scared of screwing up more then finding what was out there. They also mentioned leaving the Cylons alone.

quote: Originally posted by GePap On the Cyclons having some immense empire- why would anyone think so? If they had such overwhelming forces to the entirety of humanity, why go through all the deception and count on a computer virus to win you the day? Just blow the idiots out of space-not like the Cylons would care about some temporary loses, now would they?

I don't know, their behavior is quite inconsistent. at Ragnar they were quite willing to sacrafice fighters for nothing(running straight into fire) but the bigger ships stood off while the humans were escaping to safety. Meanwhile we never get an accurate picture of the "whole" cylon fleet, it is just mentioned. But it is safe to say that since every ship they have is less then 40 years old, and they have quite a few that are as good or better then the Human stuff that they have done quite a good job of expanding.

	14-01-2005 20:49									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha The fleet can't hide in empty space, they need food fuel,water and eventually munitions. habitable planets are going to be rare enough to be worth putting a single listening device for them.

You still don't answer away the simple equation: one choice is a possibility of death of 1, while the other is a possibility o death of .99999 etc approaching but NOT 1.
That difference, no matter how small, is worth it.

quote: I don't know, their behavior is quite inconsistent. at Ragnar they were quite willing to sacrafice fighters for nothing(running straight into fire) but the bigger ships stood off while the humans were escaping to safety. Meanwhile we never get an accurate picture of the "whole" cylon fleet, it is just mentioned. But it is safe to say that since every ship they have is less then 40 years old, and they have quite a few that are as good or better then the Human stuff that they have done quite a good job of expanding.

Well, fighters are much cheaper than Capital ships- maybe they think like you, and believe the possiblity of their eventual survival being 0, so why lose capital ships now, when you can hunt them down at your leiasure?

As for fleet size = expansion, why? The Cylons, on a single planet, could probably build up a massive fleet- its not like they need space for agriculture, or that massive environmental degredation would be an issue- just dig the entire planet or system up and turn it all into industry. Just one Cylon world would be enough, if it was left alone for long enough.

	14-01-2005 21:02									#84
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There were indications given in the movie and on the website that the Cylons fighters aren't manned anyway, but remote controlled--although, what that means wrt to a robotic race, I'm not sure. But if there is a difference to the Cylons, then it would explain why they are willing to use fighters as fodder while the manned capital ships stand off.

I don't think we can say that the Cylons don't care about their losses. Considering that the plot of the show is going to make them out to be religious zealots, there isn't any reason (so far) to think that they have no regard for their own casualties.

	14-01-2005 21:15									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Considering that the plot of the show is going to make them out to be religious zealots,

Why do you think that?

	14-01-2005 21:20									#86
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Why do you think that?

It's already been outlined from other sources (also keep in mind the discussions that the scientist had with the Cylon woman and Adama had with the reporter wrt god). The Cylons believe that god made the humans just for the purpose of the humans making the Cylons, and that the Cylons are god's vengeance against the humans for being an errant race. You'll note the human's religious belief is not monotheistic, but is polytheistic. The Cylons believe there is only one god and that the humans are infidels.

	14-01-2005 21:39									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov It's already been outlined from other sources (also keep in mind the discussions that the scientist had with the Cylon woman and Adama had with the reporter wrt god). The Cylons believe that god made the humans just for the purpose of the humans making the Cylons, and that the Cylons are god's vengeance against the humans for being an errant race. You'll note the human's religious belief is not monotheistic, but is polytheistic. The Cylons believe there is only one god and that the humans are infidels.

Amazingly, I missed both of those discussions. Its an interesting plot twist.

	14-01-2005 23:01									#88
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I agree! It certainly adds dimension to the Cylons instead of making them "evil" robots who are just intent on destroying humanity.

The scientist/Cylon discussion was on Caprica. She mentioned god, and the scientist mocked her for believing in mysticism. She got upset with him for doing so. This was before he knew she was a Cylon.

The Adama/reporter conversation was on BSG, and the reporter explicitely asks the commander, what if the Cylons were made by god to punish humanity? Adama replies that god didn't make the Cylons, humans did. And we know what happens with the reporter...

	14-01-2005 23:10									#89
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Thanks. This show has so much promise. If I could only vanquish the mental images of the original.

	15-01-2005 04:37									#90
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Here are some review excerpts. Note the positive references to Farscape. And the not-so-positive references to Star Trek.

quote: The Hollywood Reporter <http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/> says: For character-driven, hard-edged science fiction, the return of "Battlestar Galactica" can't be beaten. Where the original series cruised in with campy derring-do, this re-imagining of the franchise is "space noir," with actors playing it for high, realistic stakes. Old fans of the series may be a mite disappointed at the changes, but this fast-paced, tense and dramatic hourlong has plenty of choice rewards for viewers and upholds the smart promise of the 2003 miniseries. The visuals and sound effects are extremely cool, with spaceships rendered as both sleek and dangerous, and the noises of fast-moving fighter ships toned down from the high-pitched whines of the original series. Characters Lee "Apollo" Adama (Jamie Bamber), who is the commander's son; Kara "Starbuck" Thrace (Katee Sackhoff); and Colonel Tigh (Michael Hogan) are all generously dysfunctional and fun to follow. Variety <http://www.variety.com/> says: Niftily picking up where the 2003 miniseries left off, the new franchise provides solid storytelling Those who don't frequent Internet chat rooms have missed much of the off-screen drama surrounding "Galactica's" voyage, with plenty of overheated bleating from fans of the original that has gone a long way toward giving sci-fi nerds a bad name. Fortunately, producers of the new show have mostly tuned out the static and stuck to their guns, crafting a very adult series whose principle shortcoming is being almost unrelentingly grim -- though not inappropriately so, given the subject matter. in terms of top-notch sci-fi fare on a budget, this impressive new vessel flies well beyond its predecessor. The Los Angeles Times <http://www.latimes> says: all of the characters and relationships are deepened in the new show. Far more serious in tone, Sci Fi's "BG" greatly improves upon the bad scripts and wooden acting of the original show (which, admittedly, is part of its charm for some people). The show could use a little more humor, and that may come as supporting players step into more prominent roles, but the first several episodes bode well for a series that should eventually win over fans, old and new. USA Today <http://www.usatoday.com/> says: Those looking for a more exciting space-adventure alternative to Enterprise should be thrilled by the series return of the hit miniseries Battlestar Galactica revival of the late '70s show — considered camp now, and lousy then. There's nothing camp about this darker, smarter, morally ambiguous update, which again follows the survivors of a sneak Cylon attack as they try to save humanity and find Earth. The show stresses the sex a little too aggressively, the better to pull in teen boys. Nevertheless, this promising show is more the heir to Farscape than the old Battlestar, which is all for the best. The Arizona Republic <http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarep...lactica12.html/> says: takes itself very seriously. It is the most ambitious science-fiction series since The Twilight Zone. Friday's series opener is as compelling a piece of suspense and human drama as anything on the major networks. The Boston Herald <http://theedge.bostonherald.com/tvN...articleid=63391> says: could end up being one of the best sci-fi television outings ever An intelligent, attention-demanding, character-driven show, it marks a maturing of the sci-fi series genre. it's the dense narrative and impressive cast that stand out. The episodes aren't neat little ``Trek'' allegories or tidy ``Stargate'' shoot-'em-ups. The series is more like a sci-fi ``The Big Red One,'' moving through the real and sometimes small emotions and personal interplay of life under close-quarters duress. Crises often play out over multiple episodes of the continuing story line. Sometimes this makes the pacing feel off and the tone flat - until an episode or two later you realize the story was building to some ingenious surprise. This is a show that takes its time and challenges its audience, which is as welcome as it is rare. The San Jose Mercury News <http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/merc...10605131.htm?1c> says: [the miniseries] caused a huge uproar among fans of the original who seemed to have forgotten just how bad the show was. now back as a weekly series -- and quite a good one far darker, a good deal scarier and a whole lot sexier than the original. loaded with surprisingly strong stuff, including provocative takes on terrorism and the politics of genocide. The special effects are unexpectedly good. And the acting is light-years better than in the original. Newsday <http://www.newsday.com/entertainmen...y-tv-columnists> says: the new version from producer Ronald D. Moore more than fulfills the promise of his miniseries smash of a year ago. This is no video game People Magazine <http://people.aol.com/people> says: there’s more than enough action to keep the show from getting preachy Unfortunately, the Jan. 21 episode suffers from guest-star casting of Richard Hatch (Apollo in the ABC original), who seems rather rusty as a supposedly charismatic rebel. The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette <http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05009/437305.stm> says: easily the best show the network has put on since "Farscape." smart, deliberative drama Two things make this series a vast improvement over the miniseries: Show runner Ron Moore and his writing staff now feel free to dig deeper into the characters, and the show's pace and tone, though still sometimes slow and somber by conventional standards, has been opened up and made more accessible. Lighter moments have been added and the show's scope has grown more epic ...