11-01-2005 20:14									#1
	Should we quit this game? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

CFC and CGN are asking us if we want to quit this game as a group. The consensus seems to be that those two teams are close to quitting anyway and if we are going to do it we should do it right and all three of us should quit.

It is being discussed at the alliance forums: Here

Hell even bongo wondered why they were still playing in a thread I was posting in in the Civ-General section.

Participation is at an all time low, so if we are going to do this now is probably the time.

BTW Big Free was correct in this thread: Here were he said miccofl was getting a lot of nasty comments from Lucky. It seems like everytime Lucky sends a save he makes some nasty comments and micco and his "team" are just sick if it.

There was also some discussion started about this by E_T last month in this thread Here

I would also ask that someone with powrZ post a news item that we have a very important poll about the future of this game in the news section. But just say that, its an important poll about the future of the game.

So vote away

Last edited by conmcb25 on 11-01-2005 at 20:19

	11-01-2005 22:14									#2
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Quit.

	12-01-2005 00:07									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I think I can do a news item. I'll get to this when I finish for the day (just starting).

I'm not sure. This game is horribly complex and I have pretty much no enthusiasm to continue, but we have put so much in.

	12-01-2005 04:22									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt but we have put so much in.

That's what my "sad smilie" (saddie?) referred to...

	12-01-2005 05:01									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

3 to 1 to quit thus far............

	12-01-2005 06:54									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I think that if we ever quit, this is the time. Low participation, and all three allies doing it at once.

Five to one thus far.

	12-01-2005 09:33									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Being the grand-father of this game, I have serious paternalistic instincts I need to consider. I am thinking.

Some questions -

1. Will this be seen as Apolyton 'giving up'?

2. Is this game winnable? (I know - sort of flies in the face of #1).

3. Most importantly - is anyone having any fun with it anymore? (and I think this is pretty much a rhetorical question given recent post - but if someone is out there - please come forward.)

	12-01-2005 16:10									#8
	Support Apolyton

Quit... better to do it clean and decided than just let the game end because nobody noticed the save was still moving around.
A shame this game didn't end properly, but I really don't see any option how we could still focus for another 2 years.

byebye ISDG

DeepO

	12-01-2005 18:59									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Beta 1. Will this be seen as Apolyton 'giving up'? 2. Is this game winnable? (I know - sort of flies in the face of #1). 3. Most importantly - is anyone having any fun with it anymore? (and I think this is pretty much a rhetorical question given recent post - but if someone is out there - please come forward.)

1. Possibly - CFC may certainly choose to show off about it. We just need to ignore them or laugh at them - they got their asses handed to them and were wiped off the face of the continent. If it weren't for GWT they wouldn't exist.

2. I think it could be, with a virtuoso performance. However I think GWT would have won anyway, seeing as they have the sizeable advantage already, and a virtuoso is too hard to do over another year or two.

3. No. The fun died for me a very long time ago. Probably before I was pressed into being Consul again.

	12-01-2005 20:01									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt 1. Possibly - CFC may certainly choose to show off about it. We just need to ignore them or laugh at them - they got their asses handed to them and were wiped off the face of the continent. If it weren't for GWT they wouldn't exist.

Actually it was CFC that suggested that if we are going to quit we should do it right and all Three of us quit, CFC, CGN and Apoly. So I dont think this will be much of a concern.

My guess is the only one who will gloat is Lucky.

And the only thing I hope we do as a group is bring forth some sort of resolution at the UN that in the future when we have ISDG's (Whatever the flavor) we just dont invite GCA.

	12-01-2005 20:05									#11
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Quit. The game lost its fun with Lucky's antics - I wonder what the game would have been like if GCA had just died in our invasion, would there have been the bad stench that has plagued the game ever since.

Our only hope of making it interesting was our invasion plan of GWT's FP area and that was thwarted by their blocking of our landing technique.

re Con's post - yeah Lucky may gloat - but if GCA is put as persona non grata in any future ISDGs then I wonder who will have the last laugh - most of Lucky's problem wasn't the possible cheating - it eventually became his tone, mocking and poor gamesmanship - basically, the guy appears to be a self-centered jerk who thinks he is the greatest Civ player of all time who believes he can't or shouldn't lose.

One thing I have eventually learned from my gaming experiences - it is just a game - put in its small compartment of the big box that we call life - there will be other games - it's not whether you win or lose (although it is nice to win ) , but how you play the game and the fun you get out of it.

Apolyton should be proud of its team - we had a bad starting position and rose to be the 2nd strongest power in the game - that is an achievement to be fondly remembered as well as getting to know the other members of your own team and the other teams better.

Last edited by Sharpe on 12-01-2005 at 20:20

	12-01-2005 20:05									#12
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

BTW the fun was gone for me personally a long time ago. I have contemplated several times just leaving this ISDG, and I have even discussed it with a member or two, but some misdirected sense of loyalty has kept me around.

	12-01-2005 20:07									#13
	Remove this text

7 to 1 to quit thus far.........

	12-01-2005 20:33									#14
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Actually it was CFC that suggested that if we are going to quit we should do it right and all Three of us quit, CFC, CGN and Apoly. So I dont think this will be much of a concern. My guess is the only one who will gloat is Lucky.

Judging by what he said, I'm pretty sure he actually meant GCA there and not CFC.

	12-01-2005 21:05									#15
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

to Sharpe

	12-01-2005 21:51									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

MWIA - thanks for the specific responses. It is appreciated.

And Sharpe - I agree with con.

	13-01-2005 07:26									#17
	Get a bigger avatar today!

With great sadness I too think we should call it quits. But, I think we need to qualify it with a statement about the game in general. It should include what we thought about starting the game, what we found while playing the game and why we want to quit. Now, I am no writer! So, who wants to do it? Hopefully it can be an item that can be polled on and maybe even written by many members who wish to contribute with one main person to do some final editing. I would like to include in the statement Lucky's own comment about having a tool to look at the games Random Number while playing the game!

	13-01-2005 07:46									#18
	Get a bigger avatar today!

We could certainly do that if you want BF however I think it would be best if the reasons we gave for leaving didn't include specifics. I think it should be more of an over view.

Now when we try to get GCA banned from further competition, then I think its time to slam Lucky.

But thats just mho

	13-01-2005 07:55									#19
	Remove this text

Why not go into specifics?

	13-01-2005 08:50									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe Apolyton should be proud of its team - we had a bad starting position and rose to be the 2nd strongest power in the game - that is an achievement to be fondly remembered as well as getting to know the other members of your own team and the other teams better.

... and actually we are first in MFG. There is no reason why we couldn't win... if the players who could make it happen gave a damn after the **** that's gone on the last year or so.

For that matter, I'd be all for handing the game to BF to play out as he sees fit, except that our allies are already on their way out the door. CGN hit the retirement button before they sent the save.

So, I favour being true to our allies. Follow them out the door and let this game pass into history. Boy, it was a hell of a game at one time.

	13-01-2005 08:52									#21
	Remove this text

Incidently, I'd like to hear from the one who voted no, and the one who abstained.

Do you want to play this out as a dictator?

	13-01-2005 09:19									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I voted yes.

But me vs Germans is a quick way to lose the game.

A few GS strategy builders vs the Germans ... I'd like to see that. Watching GS vs Lego in the PTWDG shows that anything is possible.

Do I want to play it out as a dictator ? Hell no. We need a builder.

	13-01-2005 09:26									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by BigFree With great sadness I too think we should call it quits. But, I think we need to qualify it with a statement about the game in general. It should include what we thought about starting the game, what we found while playing the game and why we want to quit. Now, I am no writer! So, who wants to do it? Hopefully it can be an item that can be polled on and maybe even written by many members who wish to contribute with one main person to do some final editing. I would like to include in the statement Lucky's own comment about having a tool to look at the games Random Number while playing the game!

Can we please please please have any team statement just full of praise for GWT. Dont go out seen as sore losers.

Congratulate the winner.
Explain our reasons if you must ... we cant win without our allies. Lack of participation.




If we want to take on lucky, then do so a few days later.
Using him as the reason will just look like sour grapes.


{edit - PS - wasnt directing the above at you BF ... I was just using your quote mate}

	13-01-2005 09:59									#24
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I guess it's really over now...

	13-01-2005 10:00									#25
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Can we please please please have any team statement just full of praise for GWT. Dont go out seen as sore losers. Congratulate the winner. Explain our reasons if you must ... we cant win without our allies. Lack of participation. If we want to take on lucky, then do so a few days later. Using him as the reason will just look like sour grapes.

Let's not let Lucky rule the nature of this game any more than he already has.

	13-01-2005 10:34									#26
	Put an end to popups!

NYE and H_E

If we want to go after Lucky there will be a time and a place, but I dont think leaving the game message is it.

	13-01-2005 13:01									#27
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Beta 1. Will this be seen as Apolyton 'giving up'?

Depends on who is doing the seeing.

Lucky - invariably yes.

Others - I don't know.

quote: Originally posted by Beta 2. Is this game winnable? (I know - sort of flies in the face of #1).

Yes.

quote: Originally posted by Beta 3. Most importantly - is anyone having any fun with it anymore?

Not when I was last active; it died when I was a Consul.

Now it's a moot point. I only just noticed this poll.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe Apolyton should be proud of its team - we had a bad starting position and rose to be the 2nd strongest power in the game - that is an achievement to be fondly remembered as well as getting to know the other members of your own team and the other teams better.

quote: Originally posted by BigFree But, I think we need to qualify it with a statement about the game in general. It should include what we thought about starting the game, what we found while playing the game and why we want to quit. Now, I am no writer! So, who wants to do it? Hopefully it can be an item that can be polled on and maybe even written by many members who wish to contribute with one main person to do some final editing.

I agree we'd need to take some time and thought as to our exitting statement. I think anyone interested could contribute to the writing and editing. Finding a head editor may be needed, but hopefully it wouldn't be contentious enough to require one.

quote: Originally posted by BigFree I would like to include in the statement Lucky's own comment about having a tool to look at the games Random Number while playing the game!

I agree with con here. If we wish to put together an argument against Lucky and/or GCA being included in future demogames, we could do that seperately, but I do not think our quitting statement is the place for that. We might mention Lucky's conduct effecting the amount of interest in the game, but I don't think it's the place to try to condemn his team or even him.

quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel I voted yes. But me vs Germans is a quick way to lose the game. A few GS strategy builders vs the Germans ... I'd like to see that. Watching GS vs Lego in the PTWDG shows that anything is possible. Do I want to play it out as a dictator ? Hell no. We need a builder.

Well, if any one or group does want to play out the game, you are welcome to it IMO. Just let us know.

And while I don't think Lego is analogous to GWT, I agree this game is winnable. They may be ahead, but that's a very far cry from having won.

quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Can we please please please have any team statement just full of praise for GWT. Dont go out seen as sore losers.

quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Explain our reasons if you must ... we cant win without our allies. Lack of participation.

I see the latter as being the reason, really. We could play on so long as there was interest and participation even if CFC left and we were thus losing.

	13-01-2005 13:04									#28
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I agree that GWT needs to get full credit for playing well because they have. I just wanted to point out a few flaws in the game, most of which were due to GCA's "questionable" play.

I do not want to be seen as a sore loser. I also don't want to make anything sound as "We could have won if we wanted to play this out." But, I do want to mak it clear that not only do we (APO) but CFC and CGN felt the same way towards GCA's actions, leaving completely free, GWT, from those types of negative comments.

	13-01-2005 13:08									#29
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Must have taken a while to put that post up there Kloreep!

But, I have to agree with what you say.

Thanks for the memories guys. We need an "official" statement though....I suggest that the games' original "setter upper" Beta(Hound) be the one. I like his style.

	13-01-2005 16:14									#30
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Indeed, I have gained a great deal of respect for GWT and its members. In times of disagreement, there were no harsh words from them any more than from our side. Even with Lucky whispering his abominous thoughts to them and attempting to turn them against us in all things they stayed civil.

Full credit to these guys :b I personally don't think they cheated at any point, and if there was ever a team worthy of beating us, it is GWT.

I'm in favour of such a statement, and that we ignore GCA completely. As in, they post and it is if we cannot see their posts. They do not exist as a civ, or as nomads, or as observers or anything. We simply cannot comprehend the existence of a creature such as Lucky within our beautiful game, and therefore we cannot acknowledge it.

It'll be far better that way, and might just infuriate the hell out of him.