16-01-2005 21:21									#31
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quote: Originally posted by fairline What happens when you want to cross the road?

You'll only be able to cross the road at different zebra crossings. I'll have to make some passable narrow "straits" in order to make this work in game.

	16-01-2005 21:37									#32
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So are roads sea and cars are ships? and garages are cities?

	18-01-2005 00:19									#33
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Progress status:
Working on the map. It will be based on this one. And those familiar with my previous maps know that there are a lot of details to take care of, but hopefully the wait will be worth it. I'm quite a prefectionist you see

Attachment: 452px-ny.terra.600pix.jpg
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	18-01-2005 00:35									#34
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Fantastic base map . . . . all the boroughs, New Jersey, docks. Too bad that the airport didn't exist in the 30's.

	18-01-2005 02:26									#35
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Here is a map

Attachment: nyworld.jpg
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	18-01-2005 02:31									#36
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Explinations:
Verrezano's Narrow bridge came about in the 1960's- don't include it.
The GW Bridge was being built in the 30's, so it should not be in either.
On the right top corner I also circled the Whitestone and throngs neck bridges, neither in action at the time either.
The only Bridges were the Brooklyn, Manhattan, Williamsburg and Queensborough, all over the east river. The Triboro was under construction.

Just pointing out areas that were NOT parks, but cementaries, or sort of empty.

Bensunhurst (sp) is a big Italian area, so it should have some action. Coney island was one of the most massive vacation sites in the US at that time- millions upon millions a year.

The dock yards of brooklyn are important, as well as the docks on the lower west side. The fish market was close to the brooklyn bridge- big mob area.I circled it but did not label it. very close to Chinatown also.

At that point LIC and the areas around Newton Creek were all industry. Also, don't forget the Brooklyn Navy Yards, still in function then.

The Bronx is not as developed either.

I think I circled harlem, but did not label it. It that area in northern Manhattan north of the Park.

Oh, and governor's Island was at the time Federal territory (Coast Guard Base) so it should also be off limits.

	18-01-2005 02:52									#37
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Thanks, GePap! You've been of great help!

Would you by any chance know were the various families would have their headquarters or strongholds? Or any other geographical info on the five families? That would be of crucial help to me!

	18-01-2005 03:49									#38
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Check this out:

http://www.americanmafia.com/Cities...New_Jersey.html

Seems pretty good.

	18-01-2005 03:57									#39
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here

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	18-01-2005 04:02									#40
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Red and Orange cirles show the greatest concetrations:

There have been changes since the 1930's obviously. A lot of exits from manhattan, so imagine those areas in manhattan having more Italians, and that section in the northern Bronx is not that important-that section was not heavily populated in the 1930s.

	18-01-2005 04:05									#41
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This is income

Attachment: ny92.jpg
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	18-01-2005 04:06									#42
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From the second map you see where the big money in the City lies. I don't know how you want to handle it, but the Upper East side is big money, and heavy police prescense. The financial sector is also not so accessible.

	18-01-2005 04:12									#43
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another map

Attachment: color.jpg
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	18-01-2005 04:17									#44
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Blue areas are Big MOney-rich people, financial areas, Midtown offices- not very fertile areas for the Mob.

Black areas: well, blacks-also not friendly territority for the MOb.

Gray: Jewish areas at that time- medium fertileness-there were Jewish crime families.

Brown-docks, the Navy Yards- lots of MOb activity within the Unions there.

Orange- heavy Industry at the time. Lots of Union jobs, teamsters.

Green- new public beaches, Coney island.

Red- the Chinese, thought the area in Flushing (queens) mgiht not have been there in the 1930's.

Pink-based on the other map, the Italians.

	18-01-2005 04:48									#45
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Thanks you very much again, GePap! These maps are great. Would all the five big italian-american crime families be located with headquarters within the Italian quarters? And do you know how established they were in New Jersey at that time as to geography? And the ones there, were they somehow connected to any of the New York families so I could merge them into of those civs?

Anyway, here's the first draft for my NYC map. Took me a couple of hours. I'm quite happy with the level of details so far, but as always, I'd welcome any suggestion or proposal. Remember, this is only the draft, hence the grassland all around. But you get a picture of how it will look. Imagine it with 30s city terrain

Attachment: nyc.zip
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Last edited by Eivind IV on 18-01-2005 at 04:56

	18-01-2005 06:44									#46
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@AGRICOLA:
I'm going to use the pollution graphic extensively in this scen, John. Do you think you (in the end of the development, not just now) could remove global warming from this scen like you did with the Norwegian Campaign?

	18-01-2005 07:36									#47
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Delighted to help any time. You know my e-mail address.

BTW, I'm slowly getting towards the end of week 3 in your Norwegian Campaign and the scen is entering the end phase. Excellent scen.

	18-01-2005 16:39									#48
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@AGRICOLA:
Thanks, John! And I'm glad you enjoy the scen

Btw, can this hex editing out global warming be done with TOT files? You see, well read below...:

quote: Originally posted by fairline Sorry to bang on about ToT Eivind, but there is the perfect device in ToT to ensure that your cars stick to the roads and don't end up driving into houses etc. Techumseh had an armoured train in his Russian Civil War scenario which was confined to railways as follows (IIRC!): Make all terrain other than that with railways/roads impassable and give all units other than trains/cars the 'ignore impassable terrain' flag.

After some tests with the ocean road idea, I've begun to get some second opinions on how practical it really would be on my NYC map. I would have to oceanify every road square which could cause some problems...A lot of terrain is lost, especially on Manhattan as I would have to have double ocean terrain for cars not to block up "straits". Although the TOT sollution of techumsesh's sounds very practical, it would entail some problems as to the feasability of cars carrying mobsters and such. Only sollution I can think of, from MGE, is to infact make cars paradrop units with the carrier flag (Ju-52 from the Norwegian Campaign and Glider from Second front if you may). Hmm, quite a dilemma, as they would have to land on airbasess or inside cities Maybe airbases could be parking lots?

Any thoughts on this, gurus?

Also, has anyone checked the map I posted two posts above?

	18-01-2005 18:09									#49
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I would like to add some possibilities to GePap's list

quote: Blue areas are Big MOney-rich people, financial areas, Midtown offices- not very fertile areas for the Mob.

Prostitution, speakeasies, bootlegging, gambling . . . these fat cats want it and have the cash to pay for it. This is also the hotel district with both tourists and business travellers who want a good time, not necessarily at Coney Island.

quote: Black areas: well, blacks-also not friendly territority for the MOb.

Numbers, bootlegging

quote: Gray: Jewish areas at that time- medium fertileness-there were Jewish crime families.

Protection (small businesses)

quote: Only sollution I can think of, from MGE, is to infact make cars paradrop units with the carrier flag (Ju-52 from the Norwegian Campaign and Glider from Second front if you may). Hmm, quite a dilemma, as they would have to land on airbasess or inside cities Maybe airbases could be parking lots?

No prob. Remember, I asked you if it was legal to use Ju-52's to drop units next to a city, have the units kill any defenders and capture the city, and then move the Ju-52's into the city with their remaining movement point. No need to fuss with airports. Does that solve some of your dilemma?

Also, could other cars not be fighting vehicles to break open garage doors (kill defenders), run over people on the street, drive-by shootings and so on.


BTW, IIRC you not only nixed the brilliant Ju-52 idea of mine but also said that attacking British bases and disbanding useless ships to RB very useful aircraft were no-no's. I had that scen by the throat even before starting to play and you made me let go. And there was not a single word about any of these in the house rules.

	18-01-2005 20:49									#50
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New idea:
I have an idea on howthe mafia could establish themselves with organized crime into new areas. When one of the mafia civs capture a "city", the "cities" surrounding resources will be changed to a mafia only terrain with "illegal gambling", "brothels", "bootlegging", etc. The resources will have high trade production. The resources will vica verca be changed back into some "legal" resources if the police capture the city.

@AGRICOLA:
What if you don't manage to capture the city with the guys you carry along that is landed outside the city? Then the car would be stuck, right?

There will be seperate drive by fighting cars indeed!

@All:
I also think that maybe TOT would infact be the best option right now, if the armoured train technoque indeed works. Could I do all the dirty work in MGE first and then convert it over to TOT? That's the problem you see, I don't know anything about TOT, practically never played it. Played El Aurens for a turn or so, and looked around in Market Garden. But I can take a challenge Can you play Multiplayer with TOT?

	18-01-2005 22:05									#51
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I have an idea: What if cars are planes and they are life bombers: 2 movement but have 20 movement in total (when it ends there is no more gas) and you have to stop in a garage or an airbase (parking lot or petrol station) and then the sides of roads could be barbarian "building" units that have a defence of 100 so if you hit the wall it crashed and dies
But the only problem is planes cant carry people.

	18-01-2005 22:20									#52
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QUOTE]@AGRICOLA:
What if you don't manage to capture the city with the guys you carry along that is landed outside the city? Then the car would be stuck, right?
[/QUOTE]

Perfect, the car had its tires shot out, driver killed or whatever. You now need to bring in "mechanics" to repair it . . . build an air base under it. You have to take a risk to get the vehicle back. Serves you right for not planning the attack better.

quote: New idea: I have an idea on howthe mafia could establish themselves with organized crime into new areas. When one of the mafia civs capture a "city", the "cities" surrounding resources will be changed to a mafia only terrain with "illegal gambling", "brothels", "bootlegging", etc. The resources will have high trade production. The resources will vica verca be changed back into some "legal" resources if the police capture the city.

I thought about that one some days ago and decided it was probably a no go. Lets assume that you have X cities. As separate events are needed for when the Mob captures a city and for when the Cops take it, you would need 2X events to change one square if a city changed hands. If you want to change 2 squares, the number of events needed is 4X, and so on. How many events can you afford to allocate to this? You could, of course, do this only for a limited number of important cities.

An alternative might be to give only the Mob the ability to build city improvements such as prostitution, bootlegging etc and make the improvements very cheap to build. Add a house rule that, if a city is captured by the Cops, such improvements have to be sold as quickly as possible. If the Cops can't build improvements and their units cost a lot more to build (Would-be policemen require training, would-be mobsters require no training, they just do what they are told to if they want to live.) that would balance the scen nicely.

	18-01-2005 22:33									#53
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@Stalin II:
Not only would that mean cars couldn't carry people, I don't want cars to cross oceans or fly over houses either

@AGRICOLA:
Ok, that makes sense.

Last edited by Eivind IV on 19-01-2005 at 02:38

	24-01-2005 02:54									#54
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So can I work on everything in MGE, and in the end just convert it to TOT, and then change the role for the cars to make them stay on the road?

I looked a bit through the TOT rules file and was totally confused with everything. I found an advanced role option called "impassable terrain override". I guess that's what you spoke of, Gareth. But how do I make the terrain impassable?

Last edited by Eivind IV on 24-01-2005 at 02:59

	24-01-2005 05:09									#55
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So far as roads go, at the scale of the map, every tile will cover at least a block.

Thus cars should be able to travel to any road. What you can have is a "boulevard" terrain tile that allows for faster travel.

Let me know what city graphics you might need, I'd think that some "units" such as the Empire State Building would add flavor if you've got the slots and a neutral civ to spare.

	01-02-2005 00:12									#56
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I think I might take you up on that Empire State building thing. Sounds fun

Here's an experiment on some mobsters as I got tired waiting. Would you do it very much different, Gareth?

Note that these are only some tests I cooked up to see how it would look. I havn't added any details yet.

What do you guys think? What could be improved?

Attachment: test.gif
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	01-02-2005 01:11									#57
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The clothing looks a bit pre-1930's. The hats should be fedoras. Also, no self-respecting mobster would leave home without his Thompson machine gun . . . . or at least his violin case.

	01-02-2005 04:56									#58
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Point taken. I'm looking for a template to use as a starting point for more mobsters. When I've found it I can start adding tommy guns and such to them.

Here's my new try. I'm dying to see if you, Gareth (whereever you are ), would do it otherwise

A presto!

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Last edited by Eivind IV on 01-02-2005 at 18:06

	01-02-2005 05:10									#59
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And here's a screenshot to those too lazy to download and view the NYC map draft posted above in game

Attachment: nyc_screen.gif
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	01-02-2005 14:58									#60
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Looks fine, Eivind

If you need anything I could provide you with just ask