18-01-2005 11:07									#121
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Own goal.

	18-01-2005 11:08									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Blanket statements are not true son.

Sometimes they are. You shouldn't go around making blanket statements about blanket statements.

	18-01-2005 11:11									#123
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Beat you too it.

	18-01-2005 12:08									#124
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Duh.

But thanks for the refresh in third grade logic.

I'll add in the word, "usually."


Happy now ?

In any case, your original point is not true.

	18-01-2005 12:09									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Beat you too it.

Should have been spelled, "to"

OMG LOL!!!!111

	18-01-2005 12:11									#126
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Madison - he was mad. http://www.deadtroll.com/index2.htm...ex.html~content

	18-01-2005 13:18									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly I'm going for two who never get mentioned in threads like these: Franklin Pierce, who, through both advocated policies and feckless leadership, did more to hasten the inevitibility of Civil War than any other president, including Buchanan. Rutherford B. Hayes who, like he-who-shall-not-be-named-in-this-thread, stole his election to the presidency, and paid back his South Carolinian supporters by ending Reconstruction, a move that cost black Americans their life, liberty, and property well into the 20th century.

Good call on Hayes. I wonder if he is any relation to Isaac Hayes? If so I bet Isaac hates that.

	18-01-2005 13:52									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly Carter inherited a domestic mess, which he stewarded very badly; but the mess was not of his making. He had a great foreign policy failure (Iran) and a great foreign policy success (The peace accords between Egypt and Israel). He was a mediocrity, but hardly one of the worst presidents ever.

Interestingly his main foreign policy achievements are all looming large today.

1) Arab - Israeli peace. Carter helped Anwar Sadat and Menachim Begin reach a peace agreement which ended the state of war between Israel and Egypt and returned the Sinai to Egyption control. Sadat was later assassinated by Islamic Fundamentalists, who were ruthlessly cracked down upon. Al Qaida's #2 was imprisoned and tortured during the backlash. This was probably the first act by Islamic Fundies to make an impression on Americans.

2) Afghanistan. Carter isolated the Soviet Union diplomatically and built a coalition of Arabs, Chinese and Pakistanis to aid the insurgency in Afghanistan. The war which began in 1979 finally ground to an end 20 years later in a victory for the Taliban.

3) The Carter Doctrine. As part of his response to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan as well as the Islamic Republic in Iran Carter devised the Carter Doctrine which stated that the Persian Gulf is a region which is in the vital interests of the U.S. Central Command was created to control American military activity in the area. In 1990 the Carter Doctrine played a pivotal role in defining America's response to Iraq's invasion of Kuwait. The first war against Iraq of course set the stage for the second as well as providing an excuse for Bin Laden to declare war on the U.S. in the 1990s.

	18-01-2005 13:53									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly That has nothing to do with what a completely crap prez Hayes was; his "accomplishments" still stand. Moreover, if you can point to a single instance of any 19th-century vice president doing anything with his position, good or bad, I'll be mightily impressed; until then, it's hard to see what anybody's choice for veep has to do with anything.

I hear the Chester Arthur almost singlehandedly ended the spoils system.

	19-01-2005 00:53									#130
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Could someone create a poll listing every president named in this thread so that we can vote?

I find it interesting that Lincoln was even mentioned.

	19-01-2005 02:05									#131
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Taft

(I think there was a prez by that name...)

	19-01-2005 02:06									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I find it interesting that Lincoln was even mentioned.

Because only moron southerners think Lincoln was bad... maybe not just moron southerners... maybe just morons in general.

	19-01-2005 02:32									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Could someone create a poll listing every president named in this thread so that we can vote? I find it interesting that Lincoln was even mentioned.

Not really, with DF and Berz.

	19-01-2005 02:42									#134
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http://www.americanpresidents.org/s...performance.asp

	19-01-2005 04:18									#135
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When all is said and done Bush will likely be in the bottom 1/3 due to his poor economic leadership, poor international relations, and for the lack of equal justic and equal rights under his administration.

	19-01-2005 04:54									#136
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Give me an example. Striking down, say, the AAA or the NRA was fully within the bounds of the Supreme Court, because both of those entities were unconstitutional, or at least were acting unconstitutionally.

Striking down the CCC is an example. How could hiring workers to build public works, parks, roads, levees, and fire breaks be unconstitutional?

quote: Perhaps not in any single case, but on the other hand, Justice Owen Roberts suddenly started voting with the liberals on the Court, coincidentally right around the time that FDR was threatening to pack the Court. This created a liberal majority and instead of every major New Deal program being struck down, they were upheld instead. I'm sure you've heard of the "switch in time that saved nine" and this was it.

He couldn't have just changed his mind, or have been swayed by public opinion right? IIRC the SCUSA gutted the New Deal in 1937.

quote: So what? In the 1790s the US wasn't shipping war material essentially for free to a belligerent in a major war, and using its navy to attack on sight the warships of the other belligerent, which is what was going on in 1940/1941. The USN was at first radioing the position of German U-boats to the British, and eventually simply began attacking them on sight. Those are hostile acts.

Of course they weren't radioing British positions to the French! Youve been reading too much Science Fiction! American war vessels manuevered in line of battle along with French war vessels in an action against a British fleet. That seems pretty much the equivalent to me.

quote: Duh, Canada was a major belligerent on the side of Great Britain, and a great deal of shipping went between the two nations. We only had a right to keep the U-boats out of our territorial waters, yet by the time we declared war, we had a "security zone" extending over 1200 miles away from the US East Coast. That was both unnecessary for US security, and violated international law, and as far as I'm concerned, that zone was simply in place as a)an intentional provocation to get the Germans to attack, and b)an aid to the British.

Actually I was thinking of the Caribbean, where U boats had begun operating against British shipping coming north from Trinidad, a major oil field. American oil tankers often came into proximity to this area as they sailed east from Texas and then turned north to reach ports on the east coast. Before the war these ships generally kept well away from the US coast in order to minimize the likelihood of running aground. Both British and American tankers passed between Florida and the Bahamas while sailing towards their respective destinations.

	19-01-2005 08:12									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin When all is said and done Bush will likely be in the bottom 1/3 due to his poor economic leadership, poor international relations, and for the lack of equal justic and equal rights under his administration.

Bull.

For one, he not only was re-elected, he is the first Republican in a very long time to carry both houses of Congress as well. He deserves as much credit as Ronald Reagan for making the Republican Party the majority party in the United States.

Regardless of what one thinks of Jackson as a president, he is famous for founding the Democrat Party and making it the majority party in the US until Lincoln.

The ONLY outstanding question mark on Bush's presidency is Iraq. How that comes out in the end will somewhat dictate how history judges his decision to invade.

	19-01-2005 09:13									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Ned For one, he not only was re-elected, he is the first Republican in a very long time to carry both houses of Congress as well. He deserves as much credit blame as Ronald Reagan for making the Republican Party the majority party in the United States.

	19-01-2005 22:35									#139
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Wait, how can one have slavery AND be tolerant? Sorry, thats, well, NUTS. NO the south was NOT tolerant- saying that the north was racist, which it was, is not the same as saying the south was tolerant- in fact, the south was FAR more racists than the north and remained so for well over a century AFTER the civil war.

I meant that they were alright with blacks around. Most of the north supported slavery, they just didn't want it in the north so they wouldn't have to be around blacks.

	19-01-2005 22:49									#140
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quote: Originally posted by dejon http://www.americanpresidents.org/s...performance.asp

How the hell do they put Bill Clinton below Richard Nixon (not to mention dead last!) when it comes to "Moral Authority"?

	19-01-2005 22:49									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse I meant that they were alright with blacks around. Most of the north supported slavery, they just didn't want it in the north so they wouldn't have to be around blacks.

When you say around you mean slaves. I agree with the north being less racist than the south. Even today the North is less racist than the south. I'm from atlanta and lived in Connecticut and RI for 9 years.

	19-01-2005 22:58									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Bull.

Your fanboyism aside it is clear that Bush isn't a very good or very bad President. He's exploded the national deficit, responded well to 9/11, but screwed up big in Iraq. He's shifted the tax burden onto the poor, ruined our foreign relations, but got the economy growing modestly. He's damaged civil rights more then any modern president and he's presided over a large increase in corporate corruption and influence peddling.

In short he's not the worst president ever but he is one of the lower tier presidents.

	19-01-2005 23:18									#143
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code:
When you say around you mean slaves.

	20-01-2005 02:36									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Lincoln, FDR, and LBJ are the three Presidents most guilty of trashing the Constitution.

I second Berz's observation

	20-01-2005 18:19									#145
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quote: FDR also was conducting an illegal undeclared war against Germany, and trying to do anything he could to get the US into the biggest bloodbath in history, otherwise known as WW2.

Yeah -- damn that FDR for stopping Nazis from conquering the world.

	20-01-2005 20:12									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Your fanboyism aside it is clear that Bush isn't a very good or very bad President. He's exploded the national deficit, responded well to 9/11, but screwed up big in Iraq. He's shifted the tax burden onto the poor, ruined our foreign relations, but got the economy growing modestly. He's damaged civil rights more then any modern president and he's presided over a large increase in corporate corruption and influence peddling. In short he's not the worst president ever but he is one of the lower tier presidents.

Poor pay no taxes.

Ruined our foreign relations? Bull.

How did he screw up in Iraq?

	20-01-2005 23:10									#147
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My short list:

Harding (Corrupt POS and a corporate whore)
Buchanan (Just sat there while the country split in two)
Hoover (Stuck with Trickle-Down economics even as it was failing)
Hayes (Election stealing shenanigans and abandoning the blacks in the south.
Nixon

	20-01-2005 23:11									#148
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Oh, and anyone who thinks Lincoln and FDR were bad presidents should be shot.

	21-01-2005 04:11									#149
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quote: Ruined our foreign relations? Bull.

Cause the US is more beloved around the world than at any other time!

	21-01-2005 04:41									#150
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When were we beloved?