26-01-2005 23:51									#151
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there is an option when editing rules for difficulty using the c3c editor to change the setting for "Max. government transition time". Apparently it sets the maximum duration of anarchy for AI civs. Does the game deliberatley omit any similer option for player civs?

	27-01-2005 00:16									#152
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I forgot to ask. is it possible to edit game rules 'on the fly'? In other words if I edit a game and decide that something I tweaked needs ot be tweaked a bit differently can I have the new changes effect the saved game already in progress which I started using the old rules? Maybe the saved game has to be converted to a scenario somehow? thanks!

	27-01-2005 00:26									#153
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If a unit is chosen to be disbanded, it will usually be one far away from all your cities.

Also note that if you are a human on Chieftain, you are immune to this.

quote: Originally posted by pvzh quote: I haven't seen a negative treasury yet but I'm guessing that is possible in civ3. No it is not possible. Once you do not have enough money, either one unit is disbanded or improvement is sold. One of these things happens randomly. However, you do not lose more than one of these per turn regardless of your deficite.

	27-01-2005 00:29									#154
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Since one of the vanilla patches, don't know the exact one, the settings have been included in the game file, so, nope, you can not edit games on the fly.

One exception: ini settings are not stored in the file, so you can switch back and forth between good and bad barbs on the fly.

quote: Originally posted by Geronimo I forgot to ask. is it possible to edit game rules 'on the fly'? In other words if I edit a game and decide that something I tweaked needs ot be tweaked a bit differently can I have the new changes effect the saved game already in progress which I started using the old rules? Maybe the saved game has to be converted to a scenario somehow? thanks!

	27-01-2005 01:20									#155
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I've noticed just about the only way to avoid cities going into disorer is either to scroll up and down the doemsitc advisor city list every freakin turn looking for cities with a surplus of unhappy citizens or to turn on an ai governor that maximises happiness. Is there a way to edit the governor such that it will always boost happiness only to the point where the city will not be in disorder and then seek maximum production of food and shields with the rest of the workers? I get really tired of trying to micromanage my cities during the early log growth expansion phase of an agricultural civ on a huge map.

	27-01-2005 01:42									#156
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You can also scroll thru the domestic minister list of cities and look at the population counts there.

The big failing is that it does not highlight cities that will fall into disorder next turn if action is not taken in red like SMAC.

AI will choose very poorly with regard to happiness.
Often hiring any specalist will suffice to keep the peace.

	27-01-2005 01:54									#157
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I confess I sometimes turn on the happiness governor. If I'm wonder or factory building and I have all the shield tiles worked, I'll sometimes leave things for the governor. He won't change any tiles, however he can do something that you can't: The governor can respond to WW during the AI's turn. The other time I use him is after taking a city. The city will have resistors and my troops will quell some number of them at the end of my turn. Quelled resistors immediately cause unhappiness since you are at war with their mother country. Also, hopelessly corrupt cities that perform no useful function other than growing to size 7 for unit support get the happiness governor too.

Summary: Sometimes you just gotta listen to Mr. Happy

	27-01-2005 02:12									#158
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Geronimo all you need to do is to watch for pop changes in cities. If the city grows, it needs checking if already balanced for happy faces. If it shrinks or if you gain/lose lux.

This makes it a bit easier, until you get pretty large.

	27-01-2005 04:09									#159
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Dang, it doesn't sound like there is anyway to modify the way the governors handle worker allocation. it's too bad because as has been mentioned the ai governors have the advantage of being able to make the necessary modifications on the AI's turn.

	27-01-2005 15:42									#160
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ouch. I've been playing my second c3c game this time as the dutch at regent difficulty on an enormous map with the objective of eventually using the federal republic government I added and the corruption reducing improvments i edited in as well.

However a funny thing happened while on the way to reaching the techs that would unlock those changes.

You may recall that in my first game, I played all the way through with the entire world at peace for every single turn of the game right up to my late but complete victory in 2046 by population domination. This convinced me that the AI in c3c was much more peaceably inclined than in civ2.

Well, the second place civ in my current game is the Aztecs. I've had an excellent mutually benefical trading relationship with them and our civs have remained in republic and at completely at peace with each other and the world for as long as I've known them. Three turns ago in the year 570 just 4 turns before my federal government would be available, the aztecs used 2 galleys to land 4 units on a hill next to my capitol. When I asked them to leave they promptly declared war on me!

This was not good for many reasons. First I had been assuming that polite civs would never attack out of the blue especially with a war weariness government like republic and especially when they depend on my civ for two kinds of luxeries. With this in mind I had stopped building new defensive units for my new cities and had gone all out for economic development and expansion. When the aztecs declared war, I had no city with more than one unit in it anywhere and 3 of my coastal cities which faced the aztecs were defended by warriors and the other 3 were defended by swordsmen. Behind those coastal cities I had no defenses in any cities all the way up to the iroquois frontier on the other end of the continent where a line of swordsmen defended each of that frontiers border cities. I had two galleys close to home and the rest of my navy (only 5 galleys and a curragh) was still exploring the coastlines of the world and all were several turns from any home port.

in the 3 turns since I have liquified my entire treasury and painfully switched some improvment buildings to swordsman construction with many many wasted shields. I also built a couple catapults and two new galleys. Fortunately everything was a veteran since I had a few barracks constructed earlier and even more fortunately when I was beaten to the pyramids I had been forced to build the great wall so I at least have a wall around all my home towns and I can probably thank that for not losing my capitol to the 4 aztecs units that were originally dropped off.

What I would like is a lot of advice about waging a war of conquest in civ3. Not only are the aztecs refusing to discuss peace, but the bastards have a wealthy continent just across from my capitol. Since war has been dropped in my lap I have to take advantage of this chance to dispose of my closest rival in all categories of comparison, especially since my expansion has been blocked in every other direction by AI settlements. However, I already know that conquest is *much* different in civ3 than in civ2. I am particularily concerned about whether it will even be possible for me to conquer aztec cities without having them simply culture flip back and destory my armies. Is it even realistic for me to try to conquer such a large civ that has built at least 3 wonders so far or will it be almost impossible to hold the cities? Should I bring a settler with my invasion force so I have a place to repair damaged armies and simply raze every last aztec city I see? i really don't have the first clue about what will probably work and what probably won't in civ3 and since I was enjoying the game I'd rather not just muck about and risk my civ by experimenting. i want to win this war! if however it turns out that the consensus is that it would be impossible to conquer the aztecs at this point then i hope someone can at least tell me how I might get the aztecs to talk with me and discuss the possibility of peace. So far they clearly are not interested even though In my last turn I razed to the ground a city they had built on my continent on a tiny little spit of land I had not seen a need to occupy.

I think my production is appreciably better than the aztecs, but i don't think I have any resource advantage and my advisors say the aztecs are unimpressed with our cultural acheivements and view us as their technological equals. They don't seem to have any military allies or military wonders but they do have the lighthouse so their galleys can move a bit faster. i don't have any great leaders and only one elite unit.

At this point what should I do or what information should I try to obtain to plan what to do next?

	27-01-2005 19:56									#161
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You didn't mention what your comparative military strength is. If the advisor says you are weak compared to them, they are far more likely to attack, polite or not.

It sounds like you are in the ancient era. Conquest across the sea with galleys is tough going. I typically wait until I've take my whole continent before I go adventuring overseas. In a worst case scenario, the Aztecs will bribe your neighbors into a war with you and you'll be stuck fighting a two front war. OTOH, if you know the Aztec's neighbors, you can do the same to them. I would avoid conquest at this time unless I could call up some help.

The AI is programmed to refuse to talk your envoy for the first 5 turns of war. After that, you should be able to get peace if you've had the upper hand during the war.

It was mistake to raze the Aztec city on your continent. Now they will hate you for the rest of the game. Typically, when the AI starts a war, they will go back to polite or wherever they were once the war is over. This means you get better trade deals. If you start the war or you raze their cities, you get permanent attitude hits.

	27-01-2005 20:03									#162
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I bit of advice: if you ever see a stack of enemy units in your territory and ask them to leave or declare war, they will declare war. I

If you don't ask them to leave, it will head to it's desired location, which is probably the city of yours they envy the most. If you can keep them from getting adejent to any of your city, they'll probably stay at peace. This is very useful if your military is weak or if they are paying you a large GPT.

f all they have is a settler-defender pair, they'll probably accept it, but it will move back into your territory the next turn [if your leaving didn't relocate them to the far side of your territory]

What you need in this case is a mobile wall to keep them from reaching intended destination and even a undefended worker curriently working a tile can be part of it.

	27-01-2005 21:15									#163
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First always presume they are up to no good, that way you won't get surprised. Seeing the galley head your way you would want to have a mobile force shadowing it. Then if they land you are ready to defend.

As was mentioned, if you are weak compared to them, according to the advisor, you can expect extortions or attacks. You can also expect a demand to leave will be greeted with war. They do not fear or respect you.

It is good advice to note the parties make up. If it is a settler and defenders, you do not need to figure an attack. You want to shepherd them to stop any settlement.

One way is to surround those units and force them to go in a safe direction.

	27-01-2005 21:22									#164
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn I bit of advice: if you ever see a stack of enemy units in your territory and ask them to leave or declare war, they will declare war. I

Not always. IF it's going for someone else, they might accept a withdraw order a couple times. But they will get more annoyed with each try, an more units will enter every turn. At some point, they will declare war.

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn f all they have is a settler-defender pair, they'll probably accept it, but it will move back into your territory the next turn [if your leaving didn't relocate them to the far side of your territory

If the AI feels strong enugh, they might declare war even for a Settler-defender combo. It's easier to scare away than a stack of units, that's true.

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn What you need in this case is a mobile wall to keep them from reaching intended destination and even a undefended worker curriently working a tile can be part of it.

Or enough force to take it, and survive a war, granting you slaves.

	27-01-2005 21:26									#165
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If you really want some ideas on how to proceed, post a save. It is hard to know how to best proceed with no data.

Invasions using gallies is a tough way to go, but you could land some pillaging units. The ai is slow to peace, unless you do some damage. Raze or capture a few cities or kill a bunch of units and they will talk.

By the time galley's are available, you want to not be weak compared to them in first 4 levels. At least until you are very sure of how the ai will behave.

BTW, if the Az built three wonders at Regent, you need to rethink your strategy, unless they are resource depenant such as SoZ, Knights or coastal. I also include Oracle as I never bother with it.

I think you mentioned a mod is involved, so that could change everything. We have no idea what is modified.

	27-01-2005 23:13									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Dang, it doesn't sound like there is anyway to modify the way the governors handle worker allocation. it's too bad because as has been mentioned the ai governors have the advantage of being able to make the necessary modifications on the AI's turn.

Yes there is. In the Governor screen, you can choose to have it emphasis production or food, and one or two others I believe. Your best bet though is not to use Governors; they're rather stupid. It means more micromanagement, but you'll do better at the game like that.

	28-01-2005 00:38									#167
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This effect is very minor.

Even with emphazie food, it will not naturally pick the allocation needed for a worker factory. (+5 fpt)

And even with emphanize shields, if the player wants ZPG, it generally won't pick that allocation. (City not stuck at size 6 / 12)

quote: Originally posted by Willem Yes there is. In the Governor screen, you can choose to have it emphasis production or food, and one or two others I believe. Your best bet though is not to use Governors; they're rather stupid. It means more micromanagement, but you'll do better at the game like that.

	28-01-2005 00:42									#168
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thanks guys! i already see several mistakes I made so I'm almost embrassed to post the file since it shows plenty of reckless build decisions and a general lack of prudence on my part. However hopefully this will be a good way to find out if there are any undiscovered glaring misunderstandings about civ3 either in strategy or whatever other failing might be manifest in the save file.

so be warned this file may contain gross stupidity.

The mods probably won't be of any concern at this point. i decided to make my modifications fairly shallow for this first experiment. The only mods are that I knocked the corruption slider down from 100% to 80%, I added a government "federal republic" made available with the discovery of democracy which is exactly like democracy in every respect except that it uses communal corruption instead of minimal, and finally I added a corruption reducing improvment that won't be unlocked until computers so I would have lots of time to see how corruption managment works out without it.

Those three mods are the only mods iirc, I certainly didn't mess with unit hitpoints or any other combat factors.

The final thing to mention is that I think I forgot a few turns when I was explaining the progress of the war, because it looks like the last save I have totally at peace is close to 10 turns back. But the situation to date is still more or less as I described.

Thanks for any advice be it friendly, or patronizing!

here's the save file

	28-01-2005 01:18									#169
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn I bit of advice: if you ever see a stack of enemy units in your territory and ask them to leave or declare war, they will declare war. I If you don't ask them to leave, it will head to it's desired location, which is probably the city of yours they envy the most. If you can keep them from getting adejent to any of your city, they'll probably stay at peace. This is very useful if your military is weak or if they are paying you a large GPT. f all they have is a settler-defender pair, they'll probably accept it, but it will move back into your territory the next turn [if your leaving didn't relocate them to the far side of your territory] What you need in this case is a mobile wall to keep them from reaching intended destination and even a undefended worker curriently working a tile can be part of it.

re: the stack of units. The only time I have not seen this to be true was when the AI was trying to get their units to attack someone they were at war with at the opposite end of my territory. I had braced my nation for war, opened up the diplomacy window and they actually agreed to remove all of their units! . I was surprised. Then they moved them all back into my territory the next turn. I then asked them to leave again, and they did. The third turn I just agreed to a right of passage agreement. That made me feel easy about all the foreign units in my territory.

	28-01-2005 01:24									#170
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is negotiating a right of passage sometimes a good way to make war less likely? does the ai often attack when it has negotiated a right of passage with the player?

	28-01-2005 01:49									#171
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actually I was going to ask the same question.

regarding the above situation in my post. I figured if they were going to go into my territory to pass through to attack the zulu, they may as well have a right of passage. I do believe they take a pretty good diplomatic hit if they break that agreement. I can't ever recall the ai breaking it (though I don't make them that often).

	28-01-2005 02:05									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo is negotiating a right of passage sometimes a good way to make war less likely? does the ai often attack when it has negotiated a right of passage with the player?

Any running deal makes the AI less likely to attack you. A ROP will usually prevent any wars until mid/late Medieval Age. At this point, global conficts begin to destroy everyone's reputation, and deals are more likely to be broken. Still, a ROP helps keep that toned down.

If they have a ROP, they might be sending units through your territory, if that happens to be the shortest path. If you are on a paninsula, and have a ROP with someone, they will only send units if they intend to attack you. If you have Railroads, and sign a ROP, make sure all your cities have defenders, as the AI can sometimes slip a Warrior to take a metro, just for kicks...

	28-01-2005 02:17									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident actually I was going to ask the same question. regarding the above situation in my post. I figured if they were going to go into my territory to pass through to attack the zulu, they may as well have a right of passage. I do believe they take a pretty good diplomatic hit if they break that agreement. I can't ever recall the ai breaking it (though I don't make them that often).

Without knowing all the parameters I can only say that RoP rapes do occur. I would prefer to let them pass, rather than give an RoP.

Then I can demand they leave anytime. They also have a nasty habit of being on your road/rails and forcing you to take a different route. This makes me fort a unit on any key choke points to keep the way open. I may not want to have to do that in all cases.

	28-01-2005 02:26									#174
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I usually have multiple routes, I build rails everywhere

	28-01-2005 02:45									#175
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Dang, i only just now realised an importance of a difference in terrain development between civ2 and civ3. All this time I have been mining only hills and mountains. What I should have been duing is mining any grasslands near cities that are at size 12 with a food surplus or which simply don't make enough shieelds to get by. I can't believe it took me this long to realise how useful mining grasslands might be early on. In fact it only just now occured to me as I was looking at the viking save game in the 'help me win at demigod' thread from the strategy forum. I could have been in *much* better shape in several cities if I had only realised this several turns back.

	28-01-2005 02:57									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I usually have multiple routes, I build rails everywhere

Yes has we all try to do, but this problem I mentioned is not a necessarily a question of not being able to get from here to there. It is often a question of how fast.

Especially in newly aquired land, with hills and mountains. When you are force to not take a road and enter a mountian or other movement penalities it can cost you turn(s) and mean the difference between getting an advantage or not.

Specially I am thinking of a gang up on a civ. Two ro more civs have surrounded a city and it is about to fall. Who gets its it, me or them? Not having access to the road may mean they get it.

Many other possibilities occur and I have seen a number of them.

	28-01-2005 03:17									#177
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Yes has we all try to do, but this problem I mentioned is not a necessarily a question of not being able to get from here to there. It is often a question of how fast. Especially in newly aquired land, with hills and mountains. When you are force to not take a road and enter a mountian or other movement penalities it can cost you turn(s) and mean the difference between getting an advantage or not. Specially I am thinking of a gang up on a civ. Two ro more civs have surrounded a city and it is about to fall. Who gets its it, me or them? Not having access to the road may mean they get it. Many other possibilities occur and I have seen a number of them.

what good is it to even get an enemy city? don't they have a rnadom chance of flipping back that can't be eliminated? I was under the impression that conquest is only really possible by razing everything you conquer to the ground and then building your own cities in their place. What good is it to build up a city and garrison troops there if there will always be a random chance of it becoming someone else's city without any warning or fightin g chance whatsoever?

	28-01-2005 03:30									#178
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razing

I conquer all. But what I usually do is an all or none approach. If they are on different continents I never conquer (I will raze in that situtation- but I don't rebuild). If I conquer on different continents it's because another civ is too large or are in danger of building a spaceship. What happens is I usually conquer all the AI cities on my continent (I leave them their pitiful island cities). This eliminates the chance of the city flipping. And gives you good cities often with wonders in them (usually obsolete ones though).

But again, that's my approach. I suck at mircomanaging a builder style. I win through large empires. I just haven't been able to win games at higher levels when I'm a small nation. Other maybe can.

	28-01-2005 04:08									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident razing I conquer all. But what I usually do is an all or none approach. If they are on different continents I never conquer (I will raze in that situtation- but I don't rebuild). If I conquer on different continents it's because another civ is too large or are in danger of building a spaceship. What happens is I usually conquer all the AI cities on my continent (I leave them their pitiful island cities). This eliminates the chance of the city flipping. And gives you good cities often with wonders in them (usually obsolete ones though). But again, that's my approach. I suck at mircomanaging a builder style. I win through large empires. I just haven't been able to win games at higher levels when I'm a small nation. Other maybe can.

so cities can only flip if they are next to another civs city? they can't flip if all the cities on that landmass belong to you evne if the cities are primarily populated by foriegners?

	28-01-2005 05:26									#180
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If the civ in question is wiped out, your cities can't flip to them.

Before then there is a chance, but the more culture you have realtive to the other players, the less you have to worry about flipping and the more they do.