21-01-2005 01:31									#121
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There's also an online document that covers the editor.

Be advised that there are some changes you can make that the AI can't handle at all, and others that wouldn't affect the AI and would only affect the humans.

	21-01-2005 01:43									#122
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I think if I wanted an earlier government with communal corruption, I'd change Feudalism's corruption model to communal and maybe change its unit support mechanism to something less unconventional. Since Feudalism has war weariness and would have less free support, the later change to Communism (under whatever name it ends up with) would still be worthwhile. And the balance between the redefined Feudalism and Republic shouldn't present any worse issues than the balance between Communism and Democracy.

	21-01-2005 02:25									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo well at least the corruption insanity can be toned down with editing. I wonder if corruption editing will tend to change the relative balance of the various government types or if it will leave such balancing exactly as it is with default settings. I'd imagine that some governments are more severely stunted by the default corruption levels than others even though I've only really played despotism, republic, and democracy in my only game to date.

If you're going to do some modding in order to control corruption, a better approach would be to add new improvements in order to combat it, like a second layer for Courthouses, a Prison for example. You can also add more Forbidden Palace type buildings. Something like a Supreme court for instance.

Overall,I like the corruption model in the game, I just think they should have included more ways to reduce it.

	21-01-2005 02:34									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo That only helps to a degree. Weak player civs in the past games used to be vey difficult to keep at peace with the AI neighbors. Unfortunately if you build enough of your own cities and colonise enough resources the corruption problem becomes pretty much exactly as bad as if you counquered those territories,

A small empire doesn't necessarily mean a weak one. Since you're primarily relying on your core cities, you can have a military just as powerful as a civ twice your size.

	21-01-2005 02:50									#125
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And a lot of times "useless" far-flung cities really aren't useless at all. Most of the time I build or capture them for a purpose: resources or luxuries. That alone makes them valueable as all hell, even if they're a max corruption. That's what rush-buying is for.

-Arrian

	21-01-2005 03:01									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo That only helps to a degree. Weak player civs in the past games used to be vey difficult to keep at peace with the AI neighbors. Unfortunately if you build enough of your own cities and colonise enough resources the corruption problem becomes pretty much exactly as bad as if you counquered those territories,

With trading (technology, resources, luxuries, maps), and peace (Embassies, Right of Passage agreements), you can play quite peacefully without too much trouble. And I mean staying quite small.

In Civ3 the AI no longer has "kill the player at all costs" programmed in, so you can often stay out of most conflicts. One thing you will need is a defensive force, because some AIs simply can't be talked to (high AI aggression setting).

But it can be done. As an example, take a look at AU 505. We were prohibited from attacking any civ, until in Fascism. This basically forced the players to stay at peace for a large part of the game. And corruption was never an issue for the small empire. Of course then we used Fascism, and went to war, but it was far from necessary to win the game.
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	24-01-2005 01:21									#127
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Under Republic or Democracy you can still spend cash to rush-build courthouses and police station in far-away corrupt cities. I found that with those constructed, these cities do become manageable, especially when their radius terrain is cultivated.

	24-01-2005 04:10									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi Geronimo, just create your mod, and don't generate a map in the editor. Then you can play it on new random maps all you like. Heck, after entering the extended cities lists, I renamed mine "conquests.biq" (after backing up the original, of course), so now every time I start a new game normally, I get the changes I made.

i was going to do this but ran into a few wrinkles.

First, if i use the editor and save the results when the map is just one huge ocean with polar ice caps, it will generate a random map when I try to play using that file?

How do I load 'conquests.big' so that I can edit it? so far it only wants to let me load files that have the ".bic" extension and there is only one of those to be found.

Do I use the editor for any and all changes, such as renaming 'communism' 'federal republic'?

And, how can I tell which changes are likely to cause the game to crash?

	24-01-2005 04:23									#129
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iirc the bic files were from the civ3 vanilla editor. You have to use the editor in the conquests folder. one modifies biq files, the other is bic. I can't remember which is which though.

	24-01-2005 08:13									#130
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Bic for vanilla, bix for PTW and Biq for C3C. Each need their own editor.

	24-01-2005 08:29									#131
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I guess it's impossible to predict in advance if a modification will be prone to causing game crashes?

I guess there are just two changes I have my heart set on now. Adding in 'federal republic' as a brand new government type either enabled through it's own tech or enabled with an existing telecommunications related tech is the first. The second is doubling the hps of all units so that the spearman kills tank nonsense is somewhat less likely to occur.

Are iether of these easy to do? I have a bd feeling the only way to double the hit points of all units is to eidt each individual unit one by one. yuck! i hope there is an easier way.

	24-01-2005 09:26									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo I guess it's impossible to predict in advance if a modification will be prone to causing game crashes? I guess there are just two changes I have my heart set on now. Adding in 'federal republic' as a brand new government type either enabled through it's own tech or enabled with an existing telecommunications related tech is the first. The second is doubling the hps of all units so that the spearman kills tank nonsense is somewhat less likely to occur. Are iether of these easy to do? I have a bd feeling the only way to double the hit points of all units is to eidt each individual unit one by one. yuck! i hope there is an easier way.

nope, easier than that.

You can just edit the hitpoint values of conscript, regular, veteran, and elite units. That's just 4 numbers you have to change .

	24-01-2005 09:29									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo i was going to do this but ran into a few wrinkles. First, if i use the editor and save the results when the map is just one huge ocean with polar ice caps, it will generate a random map when I try to play using that file?

Yes, it will.

quote: How do I load 'conquests.big' so that I can edit it? so far it only wants to let me load files that have the ".bic" extension and there is only one of those to be found.

The biq/bic part's been answered, but you don't want to load the main file (e.g., conquests.biq), as they're read-only. Copy it to another folder to back it up, then rename it something like conquests1.biq (which also serves as its own backup). Now just create your mod in an unnamed file, as you would anyway, and after you save and name it, all you have to do is go back and change the name to conquests.biq.

quote: Do I use the editor for any and all changes, such as renaming 'communism' 'federal republic'?

Yes.

quote: And, how can I tell which changes are likely to cause the game to crash?

Play them out.

	24-01-2005 11:24									#134
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Civ3 seems pretty stable... I've never heard much about editor changes causing crashes.

	24-01-2005 11:33									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Civ3 seems pretty stable... I've never heard much about editor changes causing crashes.

I've never had any problems.

Long as you don't do anything crazy. Like putting values to really large numbers.

	24-01-2005 21:15									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo I guess there are just two changes I have my heart set on now. Adding in 'federal republic' as a brand new government type either enabled through it's own tech or enabled with an existing telecommunications related tech is the first.

Make sure you playtest thoroughly. If the AI doesn't choose this gov't, you've only given yourself an advantage.

Personally, I dislike super-governments for the same reason I dislike super-units. The game is reduced to a race to who can get it first. There was way too much of that in civ2 and I for one and happy to see the end of it. YMMV of course.

quote: The second is doubling the hps of all units so that the spearman kills tank nonsense is somewhat less likely to occur.

Just to dispel this one once and for all, the civ3 combat calculator gives a vet tank a 99.4% chance to win against a vet spearman out in the open. If the spearman is fortified in a metro on a hill, the odds drop to 92.5%. I think you may be solving a problem that doesn't exist.

	24-01-2005 21:49									#137
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I have only seen a tank lose to a spear once and that was soon after I got Civ3 (first day it was out).

I did come close last week in a game where my tank got to 1 hp. It is rare to run into a spear, but the Ai is always broke at sid and you can find some old units laying around, but usually it is industrial age units.

	24-01-2005 21:54									#138
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Changing the hit points is easy, except that the AI isn't particlarly good at comprohending the affects.

Changing an existing item is low risk.

Adding a new govt would probably cause a crash unless the associated text file was also modified to include it in the right format.

And in any case if you want the players of your mod to know the affects of govts in your mod, you have to edit that associated text file and be sure not to make any typos, in multiple places.

Most of the crashes should occur when trying to start the game.

Athough something like having entertainer require a tech would probably cause a crash in the middle of the game if the AI felt it needed one prior to getting the tech allowing it.

quote: Originally posted by Geronimo I guess it's impossible to predict in advance if a modification will be prone to causing game crashes? I guess there are just two changes I have my heart set on now. Adding in 'federal republic' as a brand new government type either enabled through it's own tech or enabled with an existing telecommunications related tech is the first. The second is doubling the hps of all units so that the spearman kills tank nonsense is somewhat less likely to occur. Are iether of these easy to do? I have a bd feeling the only way to double the hit points of all units is to eidt each individual unit one by one. yuck! i hope there is an easier way.

	24-01-2005 22:05									#139
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It's known that that if you give a govt "all building are free" flag, that the AI would assign an extremely high value to it. (Discovered by Firaxis during beta-testing which led to the removal of the flag from Fedualism)

The AI in 1.22 normally gives a very high priority to corruption level when chosing the peace govt type. (Correction perhaps Overcorrection for AI behavior in Fall of Rome if they stole Imperalism.) Given an equal corruption level and one a pop rush and the other a cash rush, it will usually take the cash rush for peaceful govt as well. Unit support costs don't seem to enter the equation, and neither would the WW level.

AI seems most interested in minimizing the unit support costs among the no WW govts when choosing a wartime govt.

	24-01-2005 22:53									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Civ3 seems pretty stable... I've never heard much about editor changes causing crashes.

You've obviuosly not done any modding on your own, there's all sorts of things that can crash your game. Less now with Conquests, but it's still not unusual.

	24-01-2005 22:57									#141
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Adding a new govt would probably cause a crash unless the associated text file was also modified to include it in the right format.

Adding governments isn't much of a problem. The only thing to watch out for is that you include names that your advisors will use. Like Lord or President for example.

	25-01-2005 03:08									#142
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I've done lots of moding exprements and have yet to have the game crash from one of my mods.

I have seen it crash on startup trying to use someone else's mod.

	26-01-2005 03:41									#143
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator Make sure you playtest thoroughly. If the AI doesn't choose this gov't, you've only given yourself an advantage. Personally, I dislike super-governments for the same reason I dislike super-units. The game is reduced to a race to who can get it first. There was way too much of that in civ2 and I for one and happy to see the end of it. YMMV of course.

i don't want a super government. I'll balance it will increased war weariness or something. In any event it sounds like everybody tends to have one prefered government and stick with that as soon as they reach it. 7-8 turns of anarachy is such a high price to pay that switching governments on the fly just won't happen much anyway. (hrmm maybe it's possible to limit the number of turns of anarachy to a max of 4 using the editor?)

quote: Originally posted by gunkulator Just to dispel this one once and for all, the civ3 combat calculator gives a vet tank a 99.4% chance to win against a vet spearman out in the open. If the spearman is fortified in a metro on a hill, the odds drop to 92.5%. I think you may be solving a problem that doesn't exist.

maybe, but how often is the tank in the red after such an encounter?

	26-01-2005 04:06									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo i don't want a super government. I'll balance it will increased war weariness or something. In any event it sounds like everybody tends to have one prefered government and stick with that as soon as they reach it. 7-8 turns of anarachy is such a high price to pay that switching governments on the fly just won't happen much anyway. (hrmm maybe it's possible to limit the number of turns of anarachy to a max of 4 using the editor?)

One of my biggest complaints about civ3 is the extreme severity of anarchy. It lasts too long and you get absolutely nothing, no commerce or shields, during it. And with an editor that lets you change all sorts of other piddling details, there's no way to decrease turns in anarchy. Grrr. Unfortunately this forces everyone into picking one government and sticking to it.

I prefer civ2's model of anarchy: No trade and outlying cities completely corrupt but a few cities still produce some shields. And much short duration.

quote: maybe, but how often is the tank in the red after such an encounter?

2.1% - 1 hp left
8.7% - 2 hps left

If you're really facing AI spearmen with tanks, you've already won anyway. The very rare occasional loss or reduced hps should not be a factor in the game.

	26-01-2005 13:33									#145
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator One of my biggest complaints about civ3 is the extreme severity of anarchy. It lasts too long and you get absolutely nothing, no commerce or shields, during it. And with an editor that lets you change all sorts of other piddling details, there's no way to decrease turns in anarchy. Grrr. Unfortunately this forces everyone into picking one government and sticking to it. I prefer civ2's model of anarchy: No trade and outlying cities completely corrupt but a few cities still produce some shields. And much short duration.

Maybe I should consider editing the government type anarchy so that it is slightly less severe? or would that probably be begging for game crashes?

	26-01-2005 22:08									#146
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That should be fine, only if your thinking of corruption reducition, it's not going to be slight.

Also note that Despotism & Monarchy would also need a reduction in corruption [one level each] if Anarchy is improved to stock Despotism corruption levels.

I'd also recomend if you give Anarchy any production that the following also be done:

1. Remove all units free from Anarchy
2. Free unit support to 2/2/2. (Half despotism)
3. Add Xenophobic. (No culture in cities with more than half foreign citizens)
4. Max science slider : 50%.

quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Maybe I should consider editing the government type anarchy so that it is slightly less severe? or would that probably be begging for game crashes?

	26-01-2005 22:14									#147
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I'm not aware of a way to edit the length of anarchy for humans, it's adjustable for the AIs.

(I'm exculding the give every single civ Religious and the existing Religious ones a 3rd traight to compensate as an option.)

	26-01-2005 22:28									#148
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I do not think Xenophobic is needed because culture is not accumulated in Anarchy (transitional government) anyway.

However, in terms of commerce and production you can not make it worse than despotism.

	26-01-2005 22:54									#149
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quote: Originally posted by pvzh I do not think Xenophobic is needed because culture is not accumulated in Anarchy (transitional government) anyway. However, in terms of commerce and production you can not make it worse than despotism.

sounds like I need to improve at most just one thing under anarchy, while making a few things somewhat worse so that there is no way that it can be considered a better government than despotism.

If units have a support cost under anrachy is it easy to end up ina situation where a civ goes into anarchy with low cash and comes out of it deep in debt? I haven't sen a negative treasury yet but I'm guessing that is possible in civ3.

	26-01-2005 23:27									#150
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quote: I haven't seen a negative treasury yet but I'm guessing that is possible in civ3.

No it is not possible. Once you do not have enough money, either one unit is disbanded or improvement is sold. One of these things happens randomly. However, you do not lose more than one of these per turn regardless of your deficite.