28-01-2005 05:33									#181
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo what good is it to even get an enemy city? don't they have a rnadom chance of flipping back that can't be eliminated? I was under the impression that conquest is only really possible by razing everything you conquer to the ground and then building your own cities in their place. What good is it to build up a city and garrison troops there if there will always be a random chance of it becoming someone else's city without any warning or fightin g chance whatsoever?

First I did say I would capture it, only get it. I may raze or hold, but I did not want the other civs to have it. The case that came to mind was a very long time ago and I think I did hold it and it was size 23 or there abouts.

Anyway do not think you cannot hold a city. I do not see many flips in my games and I have been playing at sid for most of my games in the past year.

I would raze in a blitz run or in many of the cases, but not so much out of fear of a flip. Rather I do not want stop blasting cities. The funny thing to me is the stronger the civ, the more liekly I will hold. This is because many of the nearest cities are holding many units and will be hard to take. So I may have to sit in the new city and endure a massive counter attack.

Frankly I suspect that armies tend to check flipping very well. I am usually lower than them in culture and have no other cities close, hey this is an invasion.

I can't put troops on the tiles as they are often covered by their forces, so it is just my troops and hooking up a harbor or airport.
Once I break their backs, I will start to capture cities, if the placement is useful.

Anyway I do not worry about flips a great deal, it may be the tie breaker in the choice of raze or not, but not the only aspect.

	28-01-2005 05:36									#182
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BTW my original point was about the danger of an RoP and the friendlies blocking you from where and when you want to go.

It could just be making it so you have to go around to get to yor city that you want to fortify or it could be workers losing time.

	28-01-2005 07:13									#183
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I was going to suggest that you make an alliance with one of the Aztec's neighbours, but after looking at your save, I see you haven't found the Aztec's core cities yet! If you are intent on conquering them, the first thing you must do is find them! Otherwise, you might as well just make peace with them.

If you want to find them, send galleys in the direction from which they came. Once you've found them, you can talk with their neighbours to try to get an alliance against them. Note that if you want to form an alliance with someone, you need to build an embassy with them first.

	28-01-2005 14:55									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Xorbon I was going to suggest that you make an alliance with one of the Aztec's neighbours, but after looking at your save, I see you haven't found the Aztec's core cities yet! If you are intent on conquering them, the first thing you must do is find them! Otherwise, you might as well just make peace with them. If you want to find them, send galleys in the direction from which they came. Once you've found them, you can talk with their neighbours to try to get an alliance against them. Note that if you want to form an alliance with someone, you need to build an embassy with them first.

thanks for the advice! I guess I should have mentioned that the only sign I had that the aztecs had a rich continent was that they hadn't taken long at all to build wonders once they started them and they had a decent resource base indicated in the trade window before war broke out.

It *is* possible to see exactly where the aztecs are in that save if you look due west of my southwestern most city on my home continent. You can see the edge of their cultural borders in the water.

I took the advice given earlier about not razing cities and a save from 590 AD to choose to let the city remain. I also got the babylonians to agree to ally against the aztecs but so far nothing has come of it.

In the turns since then my tacxtics have been pretty brute force and not at all different from civ2 tactics. I loaded my galleys up and deposited about a dozen swordsmen and catapults on a hill next door to the nearest aztec city just across the water. After easily taking the city, I was unable to progress one whit further. The aztecs sent wave after wave to take it back, including kamikaze galleys that kept me from having any ships free to explore the coast, since I didn't dare break the bucket brigade chain of ships I was using to ferry troops back and forth from the mainland.

	28-01-2005 15:08									#185
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i *finally* got my first great leader in a civ3 game! It's now 800 AD and I have saved right after an attack by one of my elite swordsmen put a little asterix by the elite swordsman's name and prompted me to rename it. It also produced the leader as a new unit named abel something.

I'm sure what I should do now is use the leader to create an army and load units into it. The problem is I know once units are loaded they can't be unloaded and the description of armies in the civpedea doesn't make it at all clear as to how the army will really 'work' once I've loaded units into it.

What should I load into the thing? will it matter if the units I load are elites, vets, or regulars or will promotions happen in the course of the armies fighting anyway? Should I load trebuchet or other artillary in it, or will they no longer bombard properly when inside an army?

Would an army combination of one swiss mercenary, one medieval infantry, and a trebuchet be a good combination?

Assuming the enemy capitol is nearby is it wise to avoid or at least postpone attacking it or is it not necessarily more prone to flipping than any other city with a wonder?

For some reason when I've been at war with an enemy in civ games, especially an enemy that broke the peace out of the blue to attack me, I can't resist the urge to find and sieze their capitol city if at all possible. But what I've been hearing about flipping and the diffiuclty of holding core cities has me thinking that might be a futile effort.

	28-01-2005 15:19									#186
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Would an army combination of one swiss mercenary, one medieval infantry, and a trebuchet be a good combination?

Combinations are bad. Either it's an offensive army or a defensive army, just as a unit is either offensive or defensive, and quite frankly I see no use for defensive armies in Civ3. So, load units of one type. If knights are the best you've got, use em, that is if you need them, if not save the leader for when you get cavalry, you'll need armies then because that's when the world war occurs (or soon after).

	28-01-2005 15:22									#187
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So I should load three of my best offensive units into the army? Will the army be at all effective in quelling unrest and other normal army dutes or will its effectiveness at such things be less than the sum of it's parts?

	28-01-2005 15:41									#188
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If I remember it correctly, the only bad things about forming an army are that units within the army can't upgrade (knights can't become cavalry later for example), and you can't seperate the units either. There may or may not be some difficulty with transporting them I don't really recall.

The benefits far outweigh those disadvantages though. You get +1 movement and multiple attacks per turn (which in and of itself is worth alot). There may be more advantages that I don't really remember either.

I haven't actually played a game of Conquests in about a year or so, which is why I'm not sure on some points.

	28-01-2005 20:39									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo I hope modding is self explanatory. Time to hit the 300 page manual i suppose.

Well Geronimo, Don't bother with the manual! Use your explorer and go to the particular Civ edition you use and look for the Edit program help file. For example if playing Conquests, the file is Civ3ConquestsEdit a Compiled HTML Help file.
Now this "Help" file is better layed out in Conquests. But if you're looking for a step by step guide to modding..you won't find that. It pretty much just defines the various edit fuctions, buttons, etc. There is an overview which is a good place to start.

As a side note...You can add "Cheats" to your mod if Debug mode is checked! I don't, but those that do, there is a few that can be added to your own creations.

Sully

	28-01-2005 20:44									#190
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Hi Theseus! I was looking at your screenshot on page 4 of this thread and saw your leaderhead had your name under it.

How is that done? I can't recall reading how that's done!
Very sharp!
Sully

	28-01-2005 20:52									#191
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quote: Originally posted by alms66 Combinations are bad. Either it's an offensive army or a defensive army, just as a unit is either offensive or defensive, and quite frankly I see no use for defensive armies in Civ3. So, load units of one type. If knights are the best you've got, use em, that is if you need them, if not save the leader for when you get cavalry, you'll need armies then because that's when the world war occurs (or soon after).

Just remember if you "save" your leader for later use you can't generate another while that hangs around! The game I'm playing currently I generated 3 leaders in 3 straight Elite battles Now that was sweet!

But one change I miss while using Conquests is that your Mil Leaders can't rush Wonders (except small ones)! Those were the days!

Sully

	28-01-2005 21:18									#192
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Armies are very powerful in C3C. I prefer to use two move units in them, but sometimes you can't wait.

So if you do not AC or Knights, then use Horses. If none of these are available use Med Inf or swords. If you use swords, the prime one is the one that created the leader as it has an extra hit point.

Note that the AI will not attack an army in the field if it is at full health. So you could send it out and pillage like crazy if you are not strong enough to take the next city at this time.

There is no problem transporting armies, as long as they do not have more members than your current boat can hold. For that purpose, add one. So a galley can only hold an army with 2 units in it.

You can ship a two unit army and add the thrid one after you land. I use that tactic all the time.

Units in an army can be promoted, but the first one or the second one are typically the only ones that get promotions. I would not stick an elite that has not made a leader in an army, if I could avoid it.

Last edited by vmxa1 on 28-01-2005 at 22:19

	28-01-2005 21:41									#193
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Don't forget that the army itself counts as a unit, so an army with two units in it will need three spots on the same ship to be able to load.

	28-01-2005 22:39									#194
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quote: Originally posted by aksully Hi Theseus! I was looking at your screenshot on page 4 of this thread and saw your leaderhead had your name under it. How is that done? I can't recall reading how that's done! Very sharp! Sully

When you are starting a game, click on the leaderhead in the set-up screen and you can customize various things.

	28-01-2005 22:41									#195
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Ahhh... ARMIES.

I am now used to the C3C AU Mod, so things are a bit different (one unit only, bonus hps and movement).

I forget, Geronimo: What version are you playing? It makes a HUGE difference in how to load and use Armies.

	29-01-2005 00:23									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Ahhh... ARMIES. I am now used to the C3C AU Mod, so things are a bit different (one unit only, bonus hps and movement). I forget, Geronimo: What version are you playing? It makes a HUGE difference in how to load and use Armies.

I'm playing c3 conquests right out of the box. I modded it slightly by using 80% normal corruption, added a modern era corruption reducing building, added a communal corruption version of democracy but I'm sure i didn't mod anything combat related.

I finally got around to look at the apolyton university forum. And now I wish I had been directed to it straight away. I hadn't realised how many unresolved balance issues c3c had right out of the box. I'll definately have to play at least one game using the 'AU' version I downloaded from there with no additonal mods of my own. But in the meantime I have this little 2nd civ3 conquests game to complete which is also my first civ3 game to have any combat whatsoever. It seems like a good idea to see how armies originally operated in this game before committing to the totally revised version.

	29-01-2005 00:47									#197
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quote: Originally posted by alms66 If I remember it correctly, the only bad things about forming an army are that units within the army can't upgrade (knights can't become cavalry later for example), and you can't seperate the units either. There may or may not be some difficulty with transporting them I don't really recall. The benefits far outweigh those disadvantages though. You get +1 movement and multiple attacks per turn (which in and of itself is worth alot). There may be more advantages that I don't really remember either. I haven't actually played a game of Conquests in about a year or so, which is why I'm not sure on some points.

I do recall difficulty transporting units in the middle ages scenario. iirc. my galley could not transfer amries with 3 units in it. I had to wait for caravels. This was significant if you play England in that scenario as you already start with an army. So what I did was partially load my army to get it to france, and then put the last unit into it. And then laid waste to Europe.

	29-01-2005 00:53									#198
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Hey Geronimo, Not sure if someone mentioned it above but if you want to combine unlike units in an Army...then don't forget that the Army will move at the speed of your slowest type of Unit.

	29-01-2005 00:56									#199
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While on the subjects of Armies and such..hopefully somebody knows the answer before I fire up the editor......if your troops occupy tiles around an enemy city...does the presence of those troops deny that city of the tile's production of FSC's????

Sully

	29-01-2005 01:12									#200
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quote: Originally posted by aksully While on the subjects of Armies and such..hopefully somebody knows the answer before I fire up the editor......if your troops occupy tiles around an enemy city...does the presence of those troops deny that city of the tile's production of FSC's???? Sully

Not sure what you mean. Certainly when a stack of aztec units moves into my city radius I can't work the tile they are standing on until they are removed from it. Isn't that the only way for production of any kind for a city to be totally denied?

	29-01-2005 01:31									#201
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Any tile where an unit that is not yours nor is the unit of an opponent that you have a ROP with cannot be worked by your citizens.

	29-01-2005 01:47									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Not sure what you mean. Certainly when a stack of aztec units moves into my city radius I can't work the tile they are standing on until they are removed from it. Isn't that the only way for production of any kind for a city to be totally denied?

Well what I mean is, I know you can't have a worker in the same tile working it. What I mean is...can your opponent, through the city screen, still have one of its citizens "working" that tile to produce FSC for it?

Sully

	29-01-2005 01:51									#203
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quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 Any tile where an unit that is not yours nor is the unit of an opponent that you have a ROP with cannot be worked by your citizens.

Wrong. As long as you are at peace, other civs' units don't interfere with your citizens. You don't need a ROP to work the tiles without interruption.

	29-01-2005 02:01									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Wrong. As long as you are at peace, other civs' units don't interfere with your citizens. You don't need a ROP to work the tiles without interruption.

Right but if at war and I have units surrounding a city....those tiles would not be able to accumulate FSC while I occupy....correct?

Sully

	29-01-2005 02:06									#205
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The easy way to say it is any hostile unit will deny access to your citizens and hence cannot be worked.

So yes you are correct.

	29-01-2005 02:20									#206
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Thanks... vmxa1...thought so...just wanted to confirm. In the game I'm currently playing..I'm at war with my closest Civ and the AI is building STAOW and I am too. I'm attempting to cut its speed of development by having my units occupy tiles surrounding the enemy city in question. As I'm waiting for my newest Army to get to the action for the siege....I was wondering about how the presence of my units were affecting the city's production. I assumed that its production of the wonder would be slowed since I occupied the squares.

Sully

	29-01-2005 03:29									#207
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It can be a very effective tactic. They will get only the shield form the city center if you sit on all of its tiles.

Better yet, you could toss the city into anarchy, if you are lucky. You would want to let them have food tiles enough to slowly starve and not have citizens that are free to be entertainers.

Cutting all the roads means no lux imported and if it is not the capitol, no connection to it either.

Use your slaves to reroad later.

	29-01-2005 05:59									#208
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo I'm sure what I should do now is use the leader to create an army and load units into it. The problem is I know once units are loaded they can't be unloaded and the description of armies in the civpedea doesn't make it at all clear as to how the army will really 'work' once I've loaded units into it. What should I load into the thing? will it matter if the units I load are elites, vets, or regulars or will promotions happen in the course of the armies fighting anyway? Should I load trebuchet or other artillary in it, or will they no longer bombard properly when inside an army? Would an army combination of one swiss mercenary, one medieval infantry, and a trebuchet be a good combination?

I haven't seen anybody mention this: you can't load arty-type units into armies. As far as what to put into armies, the basic rule of thumb is to put units with the same speed into the same army (note what aksully said: a mixed army will use the movement rate of it's slowest unit).

Other than that, it depends on what you want from the army. If it's offense you want, put your best offensive units into the army. For a defensive army, put your best defensive units into the army (duh! ). I like to use defensive armies for the defence of my massive arty stacks. You can build mixed-type armies, but generally it's best to have your armies specialize (in attack or defence). Never put obsolete units into an army (double-duh! ).

In addition to +1 movement, blitz, and free pillaging, armies also get radar (see 2 spaces in all directions), and a bonus to their attack and defence strengths.

Some notes:
 - paratrooper armies can't be airdropped!
 - marine-only armies can do amphibious assaults (as can berzerk-only armies - though I'm not sure about marine/berzerk mixed armies)

	29-01-2005 06:34									#209
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Marine and Berserks if mixed lose their amph.

	29-01-2005 07:25									#210
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*gasp* somebody better let Theseus know about this...