21-01-2005 12:12									#61
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You should keep in mind that the largest trade relationship in the world is that between Canada and the United States, not Germany and France. Now, boot-strap Mexico into the relationship.

Three nations that occupy practically all of a continent that dwarfs Europe, and with enough human wealth, on top of financial, mineral, and biological wealth to do whatever we set our minds to. If we blow this, we deserve whatever happens.

	21-01-2005 12:20									#62
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I had heard of one in the far south. I also seem to recall a crisis in Sweden sometime around ten years ago. Seems it was like a flu was going around at the time. Even the yen was affected.

There's also an armed movement in Guerero, and there are frequent peasant uprisings throughout Mexico (though generally unarmed and/or short-lived). As for Sweden, whatever was going around had nothing to do with Mexico, which had artificially pumped up its currency (and I was wrong, it was 11 years ago).

quote: Like I said, nice and safe and snug and able to grow.

Most of the problems in Latin America are internally generated, despite Nediverse rhetoric about outside agitators. While I'm not a betting man, if I were, I wouldn't put money down on Latin America as being stable, except maybe in comparison to Africa.

	21-01-2005 12:27									#63
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What's the problem?

The money given to welfare recipients is spent by them on goods and services they need. As long as there is a consensus in the electorate that people will agree to the wealth transfer which they do in countries like Sweden, there shouldn't be a problem.

	21-01-2005 12:31									#64
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The problem is that corporations can't suck as much profit as they'd like, and so they move their headquarters to countries like Bermuda, which have much lower taxes.

	21-01-2005 12:31									#65
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I had heard of one in the far south. I also seem to recall a crisis in Sweden sometime around ten years ago. Seems it was like a flu was going around at the time. Even the yen was affected. There's also an armed movement in Guerero, and there are frequent peasant uprisings throughout Mexico (though generally unarmed and/or short-lived). As for Sweden, whatever was going around had nothing to do with Mexico, which had artificially pumped up its currency (and I was wrong, it was 11 years ago). quote: Like I said, nice and safe and snug and able to grow. Most of the problems in Latin America are internally generated, despite Nediverse rhetoric about outside agitators. While I'm not a betting man, if I were, I wouldn't put money down on Latin America as being stable, except maybe in comparison to Africa.

Mexico is not Guatamala, che. They have a functioning democracy and free access to the greatest consumer market in the world. Growth is something that could be expected.

So you have pointed out that Mexico has a couple of internal problems. Are those problems as serious as the tensions India faces with Pakistan over the Kashmir, or the tensions China regularly has on its borders (skirmishes with Russia and India, outright war with Vietnam within the last 40 years)?

	21-01-2005 12:37									#66
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quote: The problem is that corporations can't suck as much profit as they'd like, and so they move their headquarters to countries like Bermuda, which have much lower taxes.

Let them do it. If they want to screw things up by impoverishing their customers then let the revolt begin!!

	21-01-2005 12:38									#67
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All I'm saying is rosey scenarios are not necessarily the case. I remember only eight years ago reading about the DOW hitting 30,000 and how recessions were a thing of the past. The economy of Mexico is rather dependent on that of the U.S., and we're looking into a tunnel and not sure whether the light we see is the other side or an oncoming train.

	21-01-2005 12:41									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon What's the problem? The money given to welfare recipients is spent by them on goods and services they need. As long as there is a consensus in the electorate that people will agree to the wealth transfer which they do in countries like Sweden, there shouldn't be a problem.

The problem is discouraging productive people from increasing the means of production through excessive taxation.

As the article you refer to pointed out, Sweden rode it's place as the undestroyed and unindebted European country to a place of great wealth in the aftermath of WW2 and the rebuilding. If you'd read between the lines, you would detect that they then squandered that wealth largely on the alter of their social system.

Incidently, Canada has done a similar thing, except maybe in a more sustainable way. The US has paid for the defence of the Americas for the last 50 years. Our governments have recognised this and progressively spent less and less on defence and more and more on healthcare. Now we can have tax rates similar to American ones, and can have our public healthcare, but only so long as the government feels that we do not need to pay for an actual defence. IOW, we are taking advantage of a rare position to be able to fund our social programs in ways that many other countries would not be able to do.

	21-01-2005 12:44									#69
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Yeah, but we had the discussion as to whether or not Sweden was a free rider, and it turns out that it wasn't, because they weren't part of the alliance system, they had to spend more on their defense because they could only look to themselves.

As for excessive taxations not motivating people to work harder, I don't know anyone who thinks, that since the government will tax them more for making more, they just won't make more, unless they are stupid. If you're making more, you're still making more, even if the government is also getting more from you. If you want more, you still get more.

	21-01-2005 12:48									#70
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara All I'm saying is rosey scenarios are not necessarily the case. I remember only eight years ago reading about the DOW hitting 30,000 and how recessions were a thing of the past. The economy of Mexico is rather dependent on that of the U.S., and we're looking into a tunnel and not sure whether the light we see is the other side or an oncoming train.

And China and India are not dependant on trade as well?

This started by you lamenting that China and India would bury the US within 50 years.

I think that was a silly thing to say, especially because it fails to take into account that the US is not alone. You do not have an EU of NA, but you are the leaders of a continental trade system that has more mineral and other wealth in so many ways than China will ever dream of that comparisons are silly. The thing that fixates people is population. I thought it appropriate to point out that NAFTA has half a billion people, and that could easily be enlarged.

	21-01-2005 12:49									#71
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People complain about how socialist policies will led to doom. Sweden has been at it for 50 years in one way or another and they are doing much better overall than the more capitalist countries.'

Slam dunk I'd say. The righties just don't know how to organize a society.

	21-01-2005 12:50									#72
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither This started by you lamenting that China and India would bury the US within 50 years.

Didn't I say 100?

	21-01-2005 12:52									#73
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yeah, but we had the discussion as to whether or not Sweden was a free rider, and it turns out that it wasn't, because they weren't part of the alliance system, they had to spend more on their defense because they could only look to themselves.

Errmmm, who seriously argues that having to pay for a defence that is never used is more costly than having whole cities and provinces, or the entire country, obliterated by the machines of modern warfare, on top of paying to actually fight a war, and not just sitting in barracks waiting for one? Please point them out, I need a good laugh.

	21-01-2005 12:55									#74
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Didn't I say 100?

Whatever, it's still absurd. Reasons already given.

	21-01-2005 12:56									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon People complain about how socialist policies will led to doom. Sweden has been at it for 50 years in one way or another and they are doing much better overall than the more capitalist countries.' Slam dunk I'd say. The righties just don't know how to organize a society.

That's why they had 100 or 200% interest rates around 10 years ago, is it?

	21-01-2005 13:53									#76
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I'm surprised Aggy and che let me get away with the exaggeration. Maybe cannibals got them.

	21-01-2005 13:55									#77
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I have always wanted ot live in sweden

btu I am glad that they didn't have 100 to 200 % iunterest rates a whjile ago

JOn Miller

	21-01-2005 13:59									#78
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It was high. I can't find a refernece to an actual number, but their economy and currency melted down in the early ninties. Interest rates went up. All I can recall is based on 10 year old recollections of something I didn't pay too much attention to, but ~60% sounds familiar.

What I do clearly recall is that it was absurd, as interest rates go.

	21-01-2005 13:59									#79
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hmm, maybe I shoudl jsut stick with cananda

Jon Miller

	21-01-2005 14:00									#80
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It's safer, and we have mucho beaver.

	21-01-2005 14:01									#81
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sounds good, I should ptry and graduate and look for a postdoc up there

Jon Miller

	21-01-2005 14:08									#82
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You are Canadian.

	21-01-2005 14:10									#83
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yes

but I ahven't p[layed hockey or broomball or anything in a while

jon Miller

	21-01-2005 14:10									#84
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yes

thankyo

but I ahven't p[layed hockey or broomball or anything in a while

jon Miller

	21-01-2005 14:13									#85
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Just grab a stick and find the nearest street hockey game when you get up here. Then say three Wayne Gretzkys and five Guy Lafleurs, and all will be forgiven.

	21-01-2005 14:15									#86
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ack, that was some double post

hmm, can I do curling instead?

Jon miller

	21-01-2005 14:19									#87
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Own goal?

Curling is kinda like the game of the priesthood. Anyone who curls is admitted directly to paradise. Of course, you have to enjoy throwing rocks across ice while drunk, so not everyone qualifies.

	21-01-2005 14:21									#88
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does anyone outside of north dicota, minnesota, and canada curl?

where did it come from?

it seems like a more complicated, but potentially funner, versino of bowl;ing

Jon Milelr

	21-01-2005 14:39									#89
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I guess not bowling, but that other game playe don ice

where yuo try to see who goes the farthest without goign off the board (and there is 3 tries...)

Jon Miller

	21-01-2005 14:46									#90
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Bite your tonge before Tizzy kicks your dingding.

Of course people outside of Canada and the Northern states curl. Scots and Norse both have proud traditions of curling. You thought that people who throw telephone poles and who invade other countries for blood sport would not curl?

And curling is never funny, young man! To the penalty box with you! 5 minutes for sacriledge.