21-01-2005 14:49									#91
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I didn't say funny

I said funner

which I don't tihnk is a word

aslo, I don't think Tizzyt reads here

JM

	21-01-2005 14:51									#92
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Are you arguing with the referee?

	21-01-2005 15:38									#93
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: As a result of the increased immigration needed, the report predicts that Europe�fs Muslim population is set to increase from around 13% today to between 22% and 37% of the population by 2025, potentially triggering tensions.

The Muslim population of the EU is 4% today, not 13%.

It's obvious that this report is simply an idiotic peice of propaganda, not a serious piece of research.

	21-01-2005 16:20									#94
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I also seem to recall a crisis in Sweden sometime around ten years ago. Seems it was like a flu was going around at the time. Even the yen was affected.

The interest that banks payed to the national bank was 500 % during a few weeks.

But we landed on our feet.

I pay 3.5 % on my house loan.

	21-01-2005 16:38									#95
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Errmmm, who seriously argues that having to pay for a defence that is never used is more costly than having whole cities and provinces, or the entire country, obliterated by the machines of modern warfare, on top of paying to actually fight a war, and not just sitting in barracks waiting for one? Please point them out, I need a good laugh.

We stayed out of WW2 because we didn't want to ally with Hitler or Stalin. Those were the options, and both would mean suicide. That was debated to boredom in the other thread.

What war did the others pay to fight in the 50's and 60's, while we were freeriding their defense budget, sitting in our barracks? We had a 700 000 man army (if mobilised) and one of the 5 largest air forces in the world at that time.

	22-01-2005 04:16									#96
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by el freako 3. The EU starts from a much better fiscal position. After Bush's tax-cuts and spending splurge the US's structural budget deficit (i.e. that which would happen if the US economy was performing at 'trend') is around 4% of GDP whereas the EU's is around 1%. This means that the EU has more option to increase borrowing to fund pensions than the US does.

It's important to note that the issues caused by the aging population is a transitory problem and will only last for 10-20 years. As such, it's perfectly feasible and responsible for governments to borrow their way though the period (within reason of course - taxes will need to be increased a little).

	22-01-2005 11:21									#97
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie We stayed out of WW2 because we didn't want to ally with Hitler or Stalin. Those were the options, and both would mean suicide. That was debated to boredom in the other thread. What war did the others pay to fight in the 50's and 60's, while we were freeriding their defense budget, sitting in our barracks? We had a 700 000 man army (if mobilised) and one of the 5 largest air forces in the world at that time.

I am not questioning why you stayed out. I am agreeing with the article in the OP of Aggy's thread. Sweden benefited from staying out when the rebuilding came and they were in an ideal situation to supply needs. It isn't a judgement, it is an observation.

That was barely scratched on in that thread. Despite Berz trying to return to it repeatedly nobody seemed to want to talk about it. Instead there were debates about the RN vs the Luftwaffe, Finns vs Russians and the impossible position that placed Sweden in, and a thousand other agendas being addressed.

	22-01-2005 17:29									#98
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I am not questioning why you stayed out. I am agreeing with the article in the OP of Aggy's thread. Sweden benefited from staying out when the rebuilding came and they were in an ideal situation to supply needs. It isn't a judgement, it is an observation.

In the other thread, we concluded that the other Scandinavian countries introduced welfare systems despite being in the war. While staying out of the war was beneficial, it wasn't essential for the welfare state.

quote: That was barely scratched on in that thread. Despite Berz trying to return to it repeatedly nobody seemed to want to talk about it. Instead there were debates about the RN vs the Luftwaffe, Finns vs Russians and the impossible position that placed Sweden in, and a thousand other agendas being addressed.

Berz was an ass, accusing us for freeriding on USA and using **** insults. That's the reason he was flamed back and not taken seriously.

	22-01-2005 18:42									#99
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The conservative cry: throw the elderly to the wolves! This is BS.

Well maybe not too far from the truth as the old continue to live longer and longer?

Sadly the very core problem of the EU, its lack of real foresight has meant that this option will not be available if its needed.
The 'Norway to kill 25% of wolf population' being the appropriate story.

	22-01-2005 19:13									#100
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I just woke up today and thought "I wonder if the EU still exists"

	22-01-2005 19:17									#101
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

well there is that.

It could just be black-ops, i have a feeling the reports about spies in Iran could be the same kinda thing. Sometimes just a rumour can provide enough pressure to get the required result

	22-01-2005 21:15									#102
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara No, I think it's more wishful thinking. The CIA isn't merely an analytical agency. It also produces ideology, and in this case, this report is likely more for internal U.S. consumption than to develop actual policy around a predicted EU collapse. There is a growing movement in the U.S. to build a more European modeled economy, and this is a salvo in the war by conservtivies to head this off.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner...

	22-01-2005 22:28									#103
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Look, we have a claim here, namely that the strains on the welfare state due to ageing (A) leads to the collapse of the EU (B). Before anyone starts arguing about the validity of A, could the person in question PLEASE first show the precise element(s) that connect A to B, instead of considering that as a given? (and something vague as economic weakness won't do)

	22-01-2005 22:31									#104
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: The thing is, the CIA issues many reports. It's very likely there's another report in the CIA saying that the EU is going to kick our economic asses. I doubt this is actually what the CIA, as a whole, is saying will happen.

like that future watch 2020 or whatever it's called...

	22-01-2005 22:58									#105
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Look, we have a claim here, namely that the strains on the welfare state due to ageing (A) leads to the collapse of the EU (B). Before anyone starts arguing about the validity of A, could the person in question PLEASE first show the precise element(s) that connect A to B, instead of considering that as a given? (and something vague as economic weakness won't do)

i agree totally - the EU is a political and economic union. certain states can fail within due to welfare or whatever, but that doesnt mean the EU as a whole will fail. i hope the CIA isnt serious about this because if they are, they should prolly fire everyone.

	22-01-2005 23:04									#106
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia they should prolly fire everyone.

The new director is doing a bit of that.

	22-01-2005 23:08									#107
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

that two bit political nomination?

	22-01-2005 23:17									#108
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Meh. India and China will PWN us both in a century.

Every model predicts this to be the case. But the British empire thought the same thing.

Nobody is taking into account that Communism is cracking and the economic/political rollercoaster expierenced by china after the communists fall will be very extreme(Business wont stay). Nobody is addressing the population problem in china. The One child/boy policy will be a MASSIVE problem 20 years down the line without importing tons of chicks. More importantly I give china and tiawan 10 years to get this thing figured out before its full war.

China's Rise isnt gaurunteed.

But at some point in the future I can gauruntee our fall. Be it 50-100 years america will fall from the top. Sooner if we occupy anymore middle-eastern country.

Another thing I can gaurunty is the overrunning of Europe by immigrants in my time. Europeans in europe dont want to survive. They are not reproducing anymore. Let the weak die.

	23-01-2005 01:38									#109
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

China relaxed the one child policy ages ago. Even when it was rigorously enforced, it was never that successful, anyway.

	23-01-2005 04:25									#110
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by BeBro I just woke up today and thought "I wonder if the EU still exists"

	23-01-2005 06:24									#111
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

If the Euros would just start ******** a bit more half of their problems would be solved.

	23-01-2005 06:25									#112
	Full PM-box? Change here!

BTW I don't see any senerio where the EU breaks down. Economic stagnation sure but not breaking down.

	23-01-2005 09:36									#113
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie In the other thread, we concluded that the other Scandinavian countries introduced welfare systems despite being in the war. While staying out of the war was beneficial, it wasn't essential for the welfare state. Berz was an ass, accusing us for freeriding on USA and using **** insults. That's the reason he was flamed back and not taken seriously.

Neither Norway not Denmark fought much. They lost their freedom, yes. But their gold sat safe in British, American, and Swiss vaults; it was not blown on arms. Nor were their territories devastated by warfare.

At any rate, the article's view of the place of the war and the aftermath in Sweden's wealth and the ability to fund social programs wasn't really touched upon. It was all but ignored among the bombs going off re the Royal Navy and Sea Lion, or the accusation that some people were later day Nazis, and the rest of the shouting.

Berz was being abrasive though, so you are right about something.

	23-01-2005 16:46									#114
	Support Apolyton

Question: if foreigners can move to the EU and take advantage of EU's welfare state, can EUers move about to similarly take advantage of high welfare?

Ditto jobs. Can people migrate to regions of the EU where there are more jobs?

	23-01-2005 18:37									#115
	Inflate your Upload Space

There is free movement for jobs. Dunno about welfare.

	23-01-2005 18:58									#116
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

EU-citizens are free to move between member states, with exception of the new members for which there's a transition period. In many cases they'll even enjoy rights to which immigrants from outside the union cannot appeal. (voting rights on local level for instance)
There are some arrangements wrt social security too but I'm not too sure about specifics.

	23-01-2005 21:47									#117
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

CIA!! Baff!

They also said Iraq and Sadam opposed a serious treath by having nuclear weapons!

Isen't it time to fire CIA and call in the all new and fancy secret organization Strategic Support Branch, SSB!


(sorry, didn't have time to read through all the posts so if someone allready said this I'm sorry, ok?)

	25-01-2005 12:59									#118
	Remove this text

What the EU needs is a common enemy to galvanize them.

Wait, we are being dumbasses and making ourselves that enemy.

	25-01-2005 13:04									#119
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

No, Ted, that would be just you.

	25-01-2005 13:05									#120
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

That doesn't even make sense.

Nice try though.