23-01-2005 16:40									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Erm... there is no "D&D" setting. D&D is just the rules, and there are a few official settings (Forgotten Realms, Planescape, Dragonlance, Mystara, Ravenloft, Greyhawk etc etc etc)

Fair enough. KotOR is not a D&D style setting then.

I appreciate it's exactly the same engine as NWN (with a few simplifications actually) but to me the setting is important, and I found the Star Wars setting much more immersive.

Still, maybe the setting question needs another thread.

	23-01-2005 16:44									#32
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quote: Originally posted by nostromo But D&D itself isn't generic: its build around an official setting. It used to be the Forgotten Realms, but they recently replaced it by a nearly identical setting. Don't remember the name.

I think it's called Eberra (Might have a wrong letter or two in there). And considering that it keeps the same races and classes, I think it's supposed to be pretty different from FR.

	23-01-2005 22:37									#33
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quote: How so? Whether a game system is easier to learn depends on the game mechanics, not the setting.

Some settings are harder to get into than others. For example, a game based on Transhuman space (an intricate, hard sci fi setting based on the Ghost in the shell manga), would be hard to get into. For the same reason, a lot of people complained that SMAC was harder to get into than Civ. Its not obvious, at first glance, what NANOHOSPITAL does.

	23-01-2005 23:01									#34
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quote: Originally posted by nostromo Some settings are harder to get into than others. For example, a game based on Transhuman space (an intricate, hard sci fi setting based on the Ghost in the shell manga), would be hard to get into. For the same reason, a lot of people complained that SMAC was harder to get into than Civ. Its not obvious, at first glance, what NANOHOSPITAL does.

precisely. A historical setting has historical buildings, units, etc. Now conceivably someone could make a game with historical names, but the units dont act at like they did historically - in which case the historical stuff isnt much use. But if there is even a vague match to history (im thinking Civ or AOE here, not grognard war games) then the historical name is a useful clue, and saves a lot of checking the manual, thinking about strategies, etc. I KNOW that I will need cats to attack a walled fortress, and that pikemen will be useful against cavalry, without having played the game, investigated its mechanics, or read a strat guide.

	23-01-2005 23:04									#35
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quote: There are more of them because the AD&D rules are sterile and mechanical, thus easier to implement in a game. Compared the rules of AD&D to, say, Ars Magica.

Good point. Yes, some rpgs are easier to implement than others. And, irc, one of the design goals behind D&D 3th edition was to make it even easier to implement in computer games. Ars Magica is a good example of a rpg that couldn't be implemented in a computer game.
But D&D is not the only implementable rpg, nor is it the best one. GURPS, Call of Cthulhu and Vampire: the masquerade, they all can be implemented fairly well in a crpg.

	24-01-2005 00:05									#36
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark precisely. A historical setting has historical buildings, units, etc. Now conceivably someone could make a game with historical names, but the units dont act at like they did historically - in which case the historical stuff isnt much use. But if there is even a vague match to history (im thinking Civ or AOE here, not grognard war games) then the historical name is a useful clue, and saves a lot of checking the manual, thinking about strategies, etc. I KNOW that I will need cats to attack a walled fortress, and that pikemen will be useful against cavalry, without having played the game, investigated its mechanics, or read a strat guide.

Indeed!

Though in doing so the can of worms is opened whereby someone will inevitably opine that it just isn't realistic that x cavalrymen have a y% chance of victory even though z didn't happen.

At which point some opinionated gamer ( ) will have to point out, at length, just how silly an argument that is.

	24-01-2005 00:35									#37
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Felch, for the clarification and nostromo for the refutation- it's Eberron and it hasn't replaced the Forgotten Realms- it coeexists with the FR.

Eberron is the 3rd ed. equivalent of FR for the 2nd and Greyhawk of the 1st- it's the host setting.

Eberron symoblizes the direction that Wizards intends to take with its new products. Strange prestige classes like the GreenStarAdept and classes like the Artificer are native to Eberron, giving it a decidedly 'pulp' flavour... and add to that action points and you have a 'cinematic wonderland' as opposed to:

Forgotten Realms- High Fantasy of Tolkien

Greyhawk: Knights, Castles, ye olde fantasy. A bit darker than Eberron and MUCH darker than the FR.

	24-01-2005 09:01									#38
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quote: Originally posted by nostromo Some settings are harder to get into than others. For example, a game based on Transhuman space (an intricate, hard sci fi setting based on the Ghost in the shell manga), would be hard to get into. For the same reason, a lot of people complained that SMAC was harder to get into than Civ. Its not obvious, at first glance, what NANOHOSPITAL does.

I reckon Alpha Centauri is sort of a bad example, because it's a game with rules closely coupled with the game setting, not a game system that can be adopted readily to various settings. Besides, it's not a RPG.

I think a good CRPG should hide all the rules and let the players concentrate on playing the game, instead of trying to figure out whether spell A is better than spell B, or weapon X is better than weapon Y.

	24-01-2005 09:22									#39
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that's half the fun

actually just kidding. I wouldn't mind if certain aspects of the game were hidden. It would encourage experimentation.

	24-01-2005 09:34									#40
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I think playing a Fallout type game in SMAC would be fun...

	24-01-2005 10:52									#41
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quote: I reckon Alpha Centauri is sort of a bad example, because it's a game with rules closely coupled with the game setting, not a game system that can be adopted readily to various settings. Besides, it's not a RPG.

But the point remains: with some settings, you can jump right in the action; with others, you can't, since they're harder to get into. SMAC was harder to get into than Civ 2, in part because of the unfamiliar setting. And yet the two were basically the same game. Btw, there's a SMAC module for GURPS The Transhuman Space modules for GURPS are another good example. They're great and all, but players can't jump right in the action, since the setting is so intricate an unfamiliar. They have to immerse themselves in the gameworld beforehand, otherwise they don't understand what's happening.

	24-01-2005 11:41									#42
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quote: Originally posted by nostromo They have to immerse themselves in the gameworld beforehand, otherwise they don't understand what's happening.

Hmm.... I don't know, I think that's half of the fun.

Then again the game mechanism of Alpha Centauri is much more advanced and subtle than Civ 2. Like social engineering and unit workshop.

	24-01-2005 11:45									#43
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http://www.wimp.com/nut/

	24-01-2005 11:53									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident that's half the fun actually just kidding. I wouldn't mind if certain aspects of the game were hidden. It would encourage experimentation.

All right, you

What I was actually trying to say is players should avoid trying to analyse the different variables of an RPG overly much to extract as much tactical advantage out of it as possible.

Using a better weapon is a good idea Trying to finding out under what conditions a broadsword is better than a long sword is over analysis.

	25-01-2005 00:04									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I think a good CRPG should hide all the rules and let the players concentrate on playing the game, instead of trying to figure out whether spell A is better than spell B, or weapon X is better than weapon Y.

I'd hate that. Guess I'm a bad roleplayer.

	25-01-2005 02:19									#46
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Me too.

I love figuring out new builds. A good RPG should offer at least a dozen routes to Real Ultimate Power.

-Jam

	25-01-2005 03:53									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Speaking of, I heard Bioware is doing a non D&D game. Surely they are working on something. They passed on a KOTOR expansion and sequal. They haven't released anything in a while have they? At least nothing for the PC. Aside from a few things for NWN. Despite it not being D&D I think it could be good coming from Bioware. If it ever somes out.

Unless you got an XBox, forget about it, Diss. "Jade Empire" is an XBox only title. It's going to be amazing though!

	25-01-2005 05:35									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Unless you got an XBox, forget about it, Diss. "Jade Empire" is an XBox only title. It's going to be amazing though!

no, not Jade Empire.

they are making a PC only game. It's called: Dragon Age

http://www.bioware.com/games/dragon_age/

It's supposed to have top down combat like Baldur's Gate. Multiple party members like Baldur's Gate. But it's also supposed to have 3d graphics and such.

	26-01-2005 08:22									#49
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike Indeed! Though in doing so the can of worms is opened whereby someone will inevitably opine that it just isn't realistic that x cavalrymen have a y% chance of victory even though z didn't happen. At which point some opinionated gamer ( ) will have to point out, at length, just how silly an argument that is.

Just cause historical settings have gameplay value independent of historical accuracy, doesnt mean historical accuracy isnt a good thing. Its of course silly arguing for it in a game like AOE where the scales of time and space are intrinsically unrealistic - who cares whether the attack values are right in a game where a single town with a pop of 50 researches technologies that it took an entire civilization to develop, and where it takes YEARS to hunt and butcher a gazelle.

	27-01-2005 01:49									#50
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I agree, historical accuracy has it's place. Mostly though, in Civ style games, people resort to realism arguments when they don't understand the game to a sufficient degree to make gameplay balance arguments.

	27-01-2005 08:21									#51
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike I agree, historical accuracy has it's place. Mostly though, in Civ style games, people resort to realism arguments when they don't understand the game to a sufficient degree to make gameplay balance arguments.

ah, doc, but civ is unique. Its not a history sim like a wargame or a paradox game, but its not a historical dress game like AOE either. Hidden behind its ships that take years to circumnavigate the globe, its unrealistic combat model, and its celebrate the king days, is a profound theory of history. Please see my column, Civ2's Hegelian Tech Tree.

	27-01-2005 17:37									#52
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Please link to your column, Civ 2's Hegelian Tech Tree.

I searched the forums, but only found references to "please see my column...."

	27-01-2005 20:45									#53
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my column

No one pays attention to the column section anymore, do they?

	27-01-2005 21:18									#54
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Well not one that's nearly 4 years old, anyhow

	28-01-2005 00:15									#55
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark ah, doc, but civ is unique. Its not a history sim like a wargame or a paradox game, but its not a historical dress game like AOE either. Hidden behind its ships that take years to circumnavigate the globe, its unrealistic combat model, and its celebrate the king days, is a profound theory of history. Please see my column, Civ2's Hegelian Tech Tree.

I've read it before, and my comments stand.

	28-01-2005 06:12									#56
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike I've read it before, and my comments stand.

That youre a gameplay man, over historical accuracy. Thats kewl - civ2 was able to attract a diverse audience.

BTW - I assume youve never played the user designed historical campaings for AOE - some of them are just fascinating, how they use the tools of that game to tell historical stories - much better than the campaigns that shipped with it. Theyre not at all like civ scens - less wargame like, but very interesting.

	28-01-2005 07:09									#57
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I take gameplay over accuracy as well. except when it comes to spearman or pikeman defeating tanks. . I stand by my comment that a spearman should never, ever in a million years defeat a tank.

	28-01-2005 18:50									#58
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I figure that if a spearman beats a tank in Civ, some unprincipled arms dealers have sold them a bunch of molotov cocktails and taught them the art of guerrilla warfare

	28-01-2005 22:45									#59
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark That youre a gameplay man, over historical accuracy. Thats kewl - civ2 was able to attract a diverse audience. BTW - I assume youve never played the user designed historical campaings for AOE - some of them are just fascinating, how they use the tools of that game to tell historical stories - much better than the campaigns that shipped with it. Theyre not at all like civ scens - less wargame like, but very interesting.

I actually like history, and I also think games like Civ are a great way to teach some broad historical facts to children (and the more ignorant adults ).

But when someone responds to a well argued point on balance from someone who understands the game that they are wrong because it just isn't realistic I want to beat them over the head with a very large stick. Repeatedly.

	28-01-2005 23:32									#60
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Elite2+3 are the best games because they model space in a realistic way.

In DnD i never understood why Plate was a better armour class than Chainmail for stopping arrows?

And Civ+Pirates taught me all i know about history