22-01-2005 07:25									#1
	Dungeons and Dragons is the best role playing system for crpg's Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Or is it?

I keep hearing how other systems are better because of flexibility and realism. But I find myself playing the D&D system the most. There has to be a reason for that, right? Although perhaps Bioware is the primary reason for that. If they hadn't made such good D&D games, I may feel otherwise. And the other reason is because I have actually played the pen and paper version of it.

But in terms of the system itself. I think it's important to have differences between the classes. And consequently I'm fine with class restrictions. I don't want to see a druid running around with platemail. Although in 3rd edition you can do that. So perhaps you can say 2nd edition rules are better. But a druid is still a druid, and cannot cast mage spells. This is the way I like it.

Morrowind did a pretty good job, but it still had serious flaws. And the classes didn't have enough distinction between each other. In fact, they didn't actually have classes.

Speaking of, I heard Bioware is doing a non D&D game. Surely they are working on something. They passed on a KOTOR expansion and sequal. They haven't released anything in a while have they? At least nothing for the PC. Aside from a few things for NWN. Despite it not being D&D I think it could be good coming from Bioware. If it ever somes out.

	22-01-2005 07:28									#2
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and yes that's where I've been the past few days.

I've been playing Baldur's Gate 2. Such a great game. I know I voted Neverwinter Nights as better because I have played it more. But Baldur's Gate 2 still holds a place in my heart.

Just finished the main game with a druid as the main character. Avenger was my kit. I used to think druids sucked, but he turned into a pretty powerful character. I think I like them better than clerics now. As in real life I can care less about all the religious crap. I'd rather spend the time in nature.

	22-01-2005 08:36									#4
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There are just more D&D games than others. I'd rather have more Fallout like games personally.

	22-01-2005 08:38									#5
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quote: Morrowind did a pretty good job

LMFAO

Morrowind is the ANTITHESIS of a good character creation system. Any character can do anything and differences in race, class, etc. amount to absolutely ZERO after level 10 or so.

	22-01-2005 08:44									#6
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yeah but at least they try to put some background to the races in the game history. so perhaps I should clarify that. The actual mechanics weren't that great. But the background story wasn't too bad.

	22-01-2005 10:33									#7
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I can see that. I thought the story was pretty good, and the races were well fleshed out; however, I don't associate backstory with character creation.

	22-01-2005 16:22									#8
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It's quite nice whacking people with swords, but then, whacking them with lightsabres is also cool. Guess the setting doesn't matter that much to me.

	22-01-2005 18:09									#9
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Whacking rulez

DnD is the most widely known RPG game playing system, so it follows it would be the same with CRPG's.

Its not the best though, by a longway IMHO, and for some other good examples of CRPG you could look at:

Twilight 2000 - a post nuclear war crpg based on its own pen and paper system. This has a pretty real-world gritty feel to it, with lots of playing around with real world weapons and vehicles etc.

King of Dragon Pass - based on one of my favourite pen+paper traditional rpg's(RuneQuest). This game is tough if you know nothing about the RuneQuest world i would say, and even as a player of RuneQuest for many years; i would often wish i had to hand some of the DM's reference books to swat up on. Its an interesting game even so.

Last edited by child of Thor on 22-01-2005 at 18:15

	22-01-2005 19:23									#10
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike It's quite nice whacking people with swords, but then, whacking them with lightsabres is also cool. Guess the setting doesn't matter that much to me.

And you can do both with D&D games!

Yay!

-Jam

	22-01-2005 19:43									#11
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I mentioned this before and nobody seem to know what I was talking about. I've always dreamed about a crpg based on Joe Dever's Lone Wolf series. While not as elaborate as DnD games (in terms of game play and rules) the background information and stories are excellent.

	22-01-2005 19:53									#12
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There is an excellent conversion of the Lone Wolf books to NWN.

Let me find you a link...

Test of the Sun:
http://nwvault.ign.com/Files/module...763304772.shtml

Mysteries in the Night:
http://nwvault.ign.com/Files/module...123002763.shtml

Both of these have more than 50,000 downloads and have won prizes (Mod of the year 2002, NWN Hall of Fame...)

-Jam

	22-01-2005 19:55									#13
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Lone Wolf? as in the 'choose your own adventure' type books that came out in the late 80's?

Edit: ah Jamski answered me before i thought of the question

Ok yes Lone Wolf was cool, but my fav out of all that lot has to be the 'Way of the tiger' series http://homepages.tesco.net/~parsons..._the_tiger.html.

Its difficult to beat a ninja for all around sexiness.

Last edited by child of Thor on 22-01-2005 at 20:05

	22-01-2005 22:31									#14
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike It's quite nice whacking people with swords, but then, whacking them with lightsabres is also cool. Guess the setting doesn't matter that much to me.

of course, kotor is using the D&D d20 system, so that doesn't count as it's own system

	23-01-2005 00:01									#15
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Well just because the engine is almost the same as the one used in D&D games doesn't make it a D&D game.

	23-01-2005 00:02									#16
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Erm... it IS a D&D game.

Its just got a different "skin" on it.

	23-01-2005 00:16									#17
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http://www.bioware.com/games/dragon_age/

here's the new bioware game in development.

It's not D&D because I don't think they have the license to do D&D games anymore. I'm curious how this will turn out. I was afraid bioware was turning to games like Jade Empire for their moneymakers. And would shy away from serious RPG's. Hopefully dragon age proves me wrong.

	23-01-2005 00:20									#18
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Its just because D&D is the better known system, or should I say the better known game setting. When you say rpg, most people think D&D. And when it comes to crpg's, that's what most people want: generic tolkienish heroic fantasy with elves, orcs, troll... If you try to do something else, like Planescape: torment, people won't buy it, even if that particular games is "powered" by the D&D system.

Take Vampire: the masquerade Bloodlines, for example. Its a great CRPG based on the popular Vampire p&p rpg. The setting is refreshingly different. But there are no elves, no orcs, no Trolls, not dwarves, not even hobbits. So it probably won't sell very well.

	23-01-2005 00:29									#19
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planescape is d&d . just set in a different plane of existance.

	23-01-2005 00:29									#20
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quote: I think it's important to have differences between the classes. And consequently I'm fine with class restrictions. I don't want to see a druid running around with platemail. Although in 3rd edition you can do that. So perhaps you can say 2nd edition rules are better. But a druid is still a druid, and cannot cast mage spells. This is the way I like it.

I prefer a system like GURPS, where can you tailor any character you wish. Irc, Fallout was more ore less inspired by GURPS. It seems Steve Jackson Games refused to license them the game.

	23-01-2005 00:34									#21
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quote: planescape is d&d . just set in a different plane of existance.

That's why I wrote:

quote: even if that particular games is "powered" by the D&D system.

That proves that the D&D system doesn't sell a game in itself: you also need "the" D&D setting, the Forgotten Realms.

	23-01-2005 00:52									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Erm... it IS a D&D game. Its just got a different "skin" on it.

It's the same engine with a different skin, but the setting is not a D&D one.

	23-01-2005 01:46									#23
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Erm... there is no "D&D" setting.

D&D is just the rules, and there are a few official settings (Forgotten Realms, Planescape, Dragonlance, Mystara, Ravenloft, Greyhawk etc etc etc)

You mean its not a magical fantasy setting. But hey, maybe it is a magical fantasy setting. The Starwars universe is just a good example of how small the differences are between "fantasy" and "science fiction" settings are.

Friendly Aliens = nonhumans (dwarves, elves, hobbits etc)
Non Friendly Aliens = monsters (orcs, trolls, dragons etc)
Force = magic

That's what I mean by a "skin" - the setting is a generic fantasy one with a "sci-fi skin" pasted over the top. Its basically the same as the Forgotten Realms, but with everything simply renamed, i.e. Lock Picking is "Security" and Lock Picks are "Security Spikes". Traps are "Mines". Bows and Crossbows are replaced by blasters and pistols, etc etc...

-Jam

	23-01-2005 02:27									#24
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quote: Erm... there is no "D&D" setting.

By D&D, you mean D20, right? For those of you don't know what I'm talking about, D20 is a generic p&p rpg based on D&D. You can even download it for free. Its just the rules, not a peep about settings. KOTOR was based on StarWars D20. There's even a D20 version of Call of Cthulhu. But D&D itself isn't generic: its build around an official setting. It used to be the Forgotten Realms, but they recently replaced it by a nearly identical setting. Don't remember the name.

	23-01-2005 06:21									#25
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Thanks, Jamski Unfortunately I don't have NWN.

Child of Thor - yes I had those books also

	23-01-2005 08:27									#26
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d20
old school AD&D

	23-01-2005 09:00									#27
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quote: Originally posted by nostromo Its just because D&D is the better known system, or should I say the better known game setting. When you say rpg, most people think D&D. And when it comes to crpg's, that's what most people want: generic tolkienish heroic fantasy with elves, orcs, troll... If you try to do something else, like Planescape: torment, people won't buy it, even if that particular games is "powered" by the D&D system. Take Vampire: the masquerade Bloodlines, for example. Its a great CRPG based on the popular Vampire p&p rpg. The setting is refreshingly different. But there are no elves, no orcs, no Trolls, not dwarves, not even hobbits. So it probably won't sell very well.

Well Im not RPG expert, but it does seem this setting issue is a seperate question from the game system.

But its an interesting one, so let me pursue it. Theres a reason that a standard Tolkienish fantasy setting is preferable to an innovative one, and not cause people are dull clods. Its the same reason theres an advantage to a historical setting, even for someone whos not all that keen on history.

Its easier to LEARN. I play a history game, and know pretty much that bronze armor is better than leather armor, what a catapult is good for, and that a battleship should beat a frigate. That a marketplace will improve trade or gold, while a factory will improve production. While I have little or no idea WHAT say, Zentronium armor' value is compared to neutronium armor, or what
a incantation of Zorax (made that up) does. So theres that much more to learn, in addition to the rules and strategies for the particular game. In a Tolkienish world at least SOME things are familiar - I kinda know what an elf will be good at , what makes a ranger distinctive etc. As opposed to trying to figure out stuff ive never heard of. Similarly thats an advantage for ST or SW - millions come to the game knowing enough of the universe that they can focus on other stuff. (why tolkienish games like Forgotten Realms D&D have been better than MOST ST or SW games is another question)

	23-01-2005 09:25									#28
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Yes, familiarity is an important factor. But that doesn't explain why people won't buy the vampire game. After all, vampires are pretty familiar, and the game is set in L.A. People who play crpgs are like those people who insist on eating spaghetti all the time.

	23-01-2005 16:33									#29
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Theres a reason that a standard Tolkienish fantasy setting is preferable to an innovative one, and not cause people are dull clods. Its the same reason theres an advantage to a historical setting, even for someone whos not all that keen on history. Its easier to LEARN.

How so? Whether a game system is easier to learn depends on the game mechanics, not the setting.

	23-01-2005 16:36									#30
	Re: Dungeons and Dragons is the best role playing system for crpg's Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Dissident But I find myself playing the D&D system the most. There has to be a reason for that, right?

That's because there are more CRPGs based on AD&D. There are more of them because the AD&D rules are sterile and mechanical, thus easier to implement in a game.

Compared the rules of AD&D to, say, Ars Magica.