23-01-2005 02:01									#1
	The List for Civ IV: Final Version Full PM-box? Change here!

The List for Civ IV

Ladies and Gentlemen, after over a year of development and work, The decendant of yin26's venerable List for Civ III has been completed.

Yes, you heard correctly- The List for Civ IV is avaliable in FINAL form after well over a year of labor by a dedicated portion of the Apolyton Community.

As you read, this list is making its way to FIRAXIS Headquarters where Soren and the rest can look it over and utilize its suggestions for the upcoming game.

(Below this note, in this thread is the list itself)

It has long been a dream of myself to work on something such as this. When I registered for the site, I came a few months after the second version of the original List had been signed and submitted.

I loved Civilization III and spent days upon days posting ideas in the forums, wanting my voice to be heard, but also wanting to be part of something more.

This List for Civ IV provided me, and many others the same opportunity, to influence Firaxis, to help our fellow civvers, and to grasp at greatness by standing on the shoulders of giants like the original Lists' threadmasters, administrators, and organizers: Snowfire, korn469, yin26, and others.

I would like to take this time to especially thank the people who made this list possible:

1st- Markos and Dan for creating the section of the site

2nd- Ming for topping vital threads for organizational efforts

3rd- The idea-makers themselves. Without ideas there would be no list

4th- Asmodean, the original Civ IV List Administrator (From November 2003-December 2003)

5th- Nuclear Master for early organizational assistance

6th- Nikolai for going above and beyond in helping with administrating the list and helping organize people, especially when I was unable to dedicate time!

Nikolai, you never abandoned the list and you were always there, and that means more than what 99% of the other people involved with this project accomplished.

Without your encouragement, enthusiasm, and aid, this list might never have been completed!

And ESPECIALLY the list threadmasters:
Azazel- Government and Social Engineering
Fosse- The Polls
Ixnay- Space
Lajzar- Units
MattH- Cheats
Nikolai- AI, Resources, Terrain
Octavian X- Wonders
Platypus Rex- Regional and City Menus
TechWins- Diplomacy
Trifna- Movement/Supply User Friendliness

-Respectfully signed and submitted:
DarkCloud- List Administrator (December 2003-January 2005); List Formatter; Threadmaster of Civilizations, General, Scenario/Map Editor.

Last edited by DarkCloud on 23-01-2005 at 02:09

	23-01-2005 02:05									#2
	The List for Civ IV Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Here it is, in all its glory- 166 pages of easy-navigable utility!

-DC

Attachment: the list for civ iv-final.zip
This has been downloaded 751 time(s).

	23-01-2005 03:20									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

erm... I know that my compilation of the ideas was not completed................

If it is not too late and can give me 24 hours, I could easily (at least) make the whole "User friendliness" thread. It's not as the Movement/Supply thread that is so long that a whole part is about things discussed over and over (talk about bulldozing in circles).

Last edited by Trifna on 23-01-2005 at 04:07

	23-01-2005 04:05									#4
	So, this list is, like, finalized, man... Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Do we wish to continue listing ideas for fun or for expansions or for Civ5 for a few more turns? Is this section of the boards going to keep going sort of like it has been or will there be any significant changes? Will existing threads continue with new ideas? Is any new fun going to replace the old fun or will I be bored with an empty space in my surfing? Is any future wishlisting going to be organized like what we've got, for the expansions or C5 or whatever? In the near future?

Thank you, DC, for all your efforts. I feel like I'm the one mainly being benefitted by my ideas having an audience (along with everyone else).

	23-01-2005 05:56									#5
	Inflate your Upload Space

Trifna- I added pages 8,9,10 of your thread- to the summary- they're all in there don't worry. At worst I may have missed an idea or two on page 7 that I wasn't certain if you added or not.

You'll also note that I standardized everyone's formatting for their threads.

As for TechWin's summary, I updated that as well.

Everything should be there. (I don't know if you received my PMs on this subject, Trifna because I was having a lot of trouble in sending them, but just view the file and see for yourself the comprehensiveness )

-As for the User Friendliness Thread- I thought that was completed?
--
Brent

Well, If you'd like to retool the list for Civ IV's expansions, please feel free to do so. For a while, though, I'm going into retirement. I wasn't able to do everything I wanted with this list becasue of the time constraints, but a suggestion to future listmakers- if they could combine the best attributes of the original Civ III list with this list and the unlisted ideas in this thread and the archived civ 3- suggestions thread and make it easily searchable, it would truly be the ultimate repository for Civ V ideas

As for future wishlisting, judging by past events after Civ III's release, most attempts to get a Civ V list started after IV's release will likely be squashed. I attempted something of the sort about 2 months after the games release, because it disappointed me- however, fellow boardmembers shouted me down and diminished its usefulness through their narrowminded refusal to consider even looking at it.

However, about a year after Civ IV's release, markos and dan might create a new forum for ideas- unless of course you can strongly peititon them to do so sooner.

Then about a year later, the forum will move up from the bottom of the forum sections and get topped on the "tree" where you view all the forums.

And that's just how it is

Good luck and bon aventure as the french say.

-DC

Last edited by DarkCloud on 23-01-2005 at 06:02

	23-01-2005 06:29									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

thanks!

	23-01-2005 07:36									#7
	Got spare money?

Thanks to you! We're just doing what we can


PS: Any useful stuff to do? (Civilopedia, beta... send spies or commando)
Civ-fan heavy-commando readied -->
Sorry, that's all we get out of them




DarkCloud:
I'll finish this presto. Also, if you're in a mood to add things, two new polls (and the last one makes me wonder how come it was not already posted):
Liberal and Conservative Democracies
http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...507#post3576944
Is a TACTICAL BATTLE OPTION a good idea?
http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...threadid=128434
What government model do we want in Civ 4?
http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...threadid=127467

Also, I think it will be time to ask each participant if he gives his permission to include his material in a wiki. I don't know what are the limits of wikis, but it seems interesting.

Last edited by Trifna on 23-01-2005 at 07:54

	23-01-2005 17:15									#8
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Very well! Congratulations to us all! Not all work that was begun was finished, but we did make a long list nevertheless. Good job, everyone. And especially so to DC. And thanks for the kind words! And Trifna, feel free to add my work.

	23-01-2005 23:51									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Trifna- please feel free to use my compiled info in a wikipedia.

Soren Thank you for seeing this and for viewing this board and voicing your support. We really appreciate how you have taken your time to look at this.
Good luck with the list, and hopefully you can find some good ideas to incorporate into Civ IV through using it.

-DC

	24-01-2005 00:55									#10
	Increase Your PM Length

Congrats and great job to everyone involved

	24-01-2005 09:39									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

well, I've looked through much of the list and it's nice to know that many of your suggestions are already in the game. I'll keep my eye out for other ideas which will fit Civ4...

"The AI should be able to handle every concept of the game with a decent skill."

I'll do my best!

	24-01-2005 11:07									#12
	Increase Your PM Length

A modest suggestion...

A while ago i started a wiki page to compile my thoughts on civ4, and I invited others to join in. Perhaps we could include this document into the wiki?

I'm not going to incorporate other people's words, as there is an ownership of ideas issue there, but I would be happy if people put in their own materials from the civ4 list, as was suggested on the original thread when i announced the wiki.

http://www.lajzar.co.uk/wiki

	24-01-2005 13:28									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Soren: That surely sounds promising. And thanks for listening to us!

	24-01-2005 19:35									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

He's just patronizing us.

	24-01-2005 20:04									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Maybe, maybe not. I tend to trust people until I get proof of not to. Just because Civ3 wasn't as good as we expected(and that high expectation was partly our fault), we can't distrust Firaxis all the time. Let Civ3 be Civ3, and cIV be cIV.

	24-01-2005 20:25									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

You do realize that 90% (I haven't actually done the math, but it's close enough) of it is just rehashed from the Civ3 list? You should have just taken an exact copy of the Civ3 list, crossed out the 3, add a four, and attatch a small appendix of the new stuff. It would have sent a stronger statement.

	24-01-2005 20:50									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Would not have worked. Lots of things work too different and quite a few ideas was implemented, if not like we wanted it to. Besides, you could try to value the work done here, alms.

	24-01-2005 21:16									#18
	Tired of ads?

Actually very few of the ideas from the Civ3 list were implemented, and most of the old ideas are still valid, though some aren't. The point of resending it would have been to say that we still felt that those ideas were valid and still deserve consideration.

I'm not trying to devalue the time you guys have put into this list, it just seems like such a waste of time to go through the same set of ideas each time a new version of Civ comes out. It's much better to edit the old list, delete things that are no longer relevant to the newer version of the game, update old ideas if they are still wanted, and append any new additions to the old list, rather than rehash many of the same ideas.

Just as one minor example, Canals were listed as a feature to add in the Civ3 list. They weren't added to Civ3, and someone proposed it again for the Civ4 list. It's a case of reinventing the wheel. Why do that?

	24-01-2005 21:33									#19
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by alms66 It's a case of reinventing the wheel. Why do that?

Easy: Because your neighbor refuses to trade the tech with you.

	24-01-2005 21:39									#20
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Trip Easy: Because your neighbor refuses to trade the tech with you.

Errr... I hate that.
go away.

	24-01-2005 23:33									#21
	Inflate your Upload Space

Absolutely, I'd say anyone can put any ideas of mine that aren't already there in the existing wiki or a new one (as if anyone would want to). I guess if there's anything of mine that other people want me to add myself they could indicate it.

I figured DC would want to (and deserve to) deliver the reins of listing to someone else, if there were to be any more. Maybe I'd even feel like running something myself when the time comes for Civ5, but I still think someone else would be more qualified, both at that point and for anything previous.

I like to think that they did their best to include what they could from the Civ3 list in the Civ3 game. I like their results.

I wonder if I unwittingly repeated other peoples wishes from the Civ3 list. I'm sure at least some of my stuff was new. I do think the Civ3 list should have been a starting point for the new one.

	25-01-2005 08:59									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

alms66
Well, for the most part, the 'repeats' from the Civ III list weren't exactly by design. We didn't cut/paste at all. The individual threadmasters may have used a few ideas from the original list, but the large mass of ideas were created by and for Civ III players who wanted to design Civ IV based upon the concepts that succeeded and/or failed in Civ III.

While it is good to take some ideas from elder lists- it is a much more productive matter to remaster the ideas and redesign them based upon new experiences- that is, new games that are released. You see, the civ-franchise and peoples' tastes are ever evolving, and so new interpretations are needed.

That being said, I share your sentiments about a mild disappointment that more ideas from the List weren't implemented, but I can understand that Firaxis wouldn't want to 'radically redesign civ' and anyways- the title of the original list was "If Just One Idea..." And therefore it was fulfilled.

	25-01-2005 09:00									#23
	Support Apolyton

Brent
You're right when you imply that I think it would be good if someone else took over the reigns of the next list. It's always good to get new blood, new perspectives and a new layout to re-infuse interest in a project.

	25-01-2005 13:38									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

O_o).o0O (HELLO!)

	25-01-2005 20:16									#25
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Please, don't spam this thread.

	27-01-2005 07:39									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Hearty congratulations to DarkCloud and everybody who put their blood, sweat and tears in to the effort. While Civ3 was, for me, a disappointment, I think that a fan effort like this can only help the design and programming teams to feel the full weight of just how many gamers depend on the Civ series to keep solid, thoughtful gaming alive.

Back when I joined Apolyton, I was Yin26. Well, I'll be "Yin34" on my next birthday in April. Looking back, the greatest satisfaction I had here, despite all the drama, was in getting that list to Firaxis. Had only Brian stayed on there, Civ 3 would have been a dream come true, I'm sure. I have to say, though, Rise of Nations was no slouch!

All this is to say I recall now a bit of the feelings DarkCloud and others must be having, and I salute you -- and this community that has served us all so well. My life is finally slowing down enough that I am ready to game again. I have a top-notch computer (thanks to convincing work that I "have" to be able to work from home, too) just waiting for some wonderfully plodding turns of the next Civ.

--Yin

	28-01-2005 22:21									#27
	Got spare money?

quote: it just seems like such a waste of time to go through the same set of ideas each time a new version of Civ comes out.

Me thinks that's the point...the wasting time part that is.

quote: "The AI should be able to handle every concept of the game with a decent skill." I'll do my best!

You'd better!

	31-01-2005 18:58									#28
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Ok, there's no way I'm going to read 166 pages. But I really hope you told them to FIX the constant trespassing from Civ3? It's a game-breaker

Trespassing once in a while is OK if the AI is looking for trouble... but it does it all the time because it doesn't know any other way of getting from A to B, so punishing them for it is totally meaningless.

This, plus a few other areas made Civ3 a disappointment, I really hope they get their act together for Civ4

In Sid we trust.... still.

	02-02-2005 06:27									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I am just curious, does the list include civ-specific religious city improvements? Is it really too much to add a little realism and have the Arabs build mosques while the French build cathedrals? They dont even need to be different in terms of value, just have different names and different art.

	02-02-2005 20:33									#30
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by J the Terrible I am just curious, does the list include civ-specific religious city improvements? Is it really too much to add a little realism and have the Arabs build mosques while the French build cathedrals? They dont even need to be different in terms of value, just have different names and different art.

There will be a whole new religion feature. We don't know the details yet, but I would imagine different art would come with different religions, considering that there are already different religious architectures in Civ3.