28-01-2005 09:50									#91
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They do have money; it all comes from Macedonia. And that's why I included things like political influence.

	28-01-2005 09:55									#92
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To explain further appleciders... There once was a NES called the GDNES3, and it was placed in the future, and there were colonies on Mars (or was it the moon?). Tass was India, and aliens from metal deposits in Indian-controlled Moon colony killed Tassadar, and took over the government, and then the whole world invaded India.

	28-01-2005 10:00									#93
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Ah, even more sense-making. I seem to remember something recent about martians in the NNES.

	28-01-2005 13:13									#94
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Rome - Carthage Fabrics-Wine trade route announced. Micha do we still have to pay something to open the trade route?

Well, with Pirates all over the Mediterranean it couldn´t hurt to send some guarding ships... Basically you don´t need to pay for trade routes, though it´d be nice if you announced the worth of the trades... Since Import costs are not affected by efficiency, while Export revenues are, it makes quite a difference.

Example:
Rome, Iron (9) - Egypt Grain (14) or something like that...

Edit:
The game (me ) handles all trades as "goods for money".
So the above example would in fact be two trade routes:
Rome, Imports: grain (Egypt 14)
Rome, Exports: iron (Egypt 9)

Read the posts below about why grain should be worth more than iron (at least during peace)...

	28-01-2005 13:41									#95
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Also, as kind of a hint, importing food might be a very good idea, even at higher costs!

Any new food ressource that is supplied will increase efficiency by 10% Resulting in a quite large rise in Income which will eventually not only cover the import costs but may even provide a small (or big) revenue all by itself...
This is especially true for countries with a large income like Macedonia or Persia...

Just an example to clarify how trade works:
Lydia wants to import fish from Macedonia, and offers 15 talents per turn. No countertrade is being done, so for Macedonia it´s a clear win!

Macedonia will have +15t raw income, making a net increase of 14t in the budget!

Lydia will have its expenses increased by 15t, but the fish is improving the efficiency by 10%. Lydia thus gets its income increased by 22t per turn, just from the improved efficiency.
Substracting the cost of 15t, there´s still a surplus of 7t per turn!

That was about the only way I could come up with that makes trading a win-win if done right

	28-01-2005 13:52									#96
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It might seem that there´s too much money to be made by trade, but nations as Carthage had almost their entire income purely from trade...

Also it depends on the players if they really want to sell two food ressources to a potential enemy who will be richer by 20%...

And a clarification about the huge impact of food:
As you can see, food is worth more than 3 luxury ressources.
This is because the first thing people want is food. And if they get the money, more food. Also the richer the people are, the more diverse they want to eat.
Second, you can see that the unmodified efficiency is 50%. With all three kinds of food imported (maybe there´ll be a fourth one resembling "fruits"), you´re up to 80%.
So even with all food supply you´re not at too high of an efficiency. Here´s where the luxuries / consumer goods come in.

So I hope you guys don´t feel food is overpowered, as there´s plenty of it and none is controlled by a single country (except for cattle, which can also be found in Spain if anyone dared to colonize the area...)

Please give me feedback on the concept, as I am quite prejudiced about it after so many hours juggling around with the numbers...

	28-01-2005 14:16									#97
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Sparta to Rome
Deal! 30t plus half of the spoils of war it is then.
As for the battle plan, we think it´s too risky to meet our navies. Instead we propose you try to get Pyrrhus´ navy to leave the area, maybe by attacking and pulling back. That way we can land the troops safely.

Another thing:
Would you be interested in purchasing fine Spartan honey? The divine ambrosia, it gives strength for the soldiers and it´s not perishable... We could export amounts up to 6 talents...
Of course Pyrrhus has to be dealt with before, as he will intercept the trade vessels...

Lydia to Macedonia
Indeed we are interest in purchasing your fish surplus! We´d be willing to pay, say 9 talents per turn?
For wines our traders estimate that 4 talents per turn would give the most pleasant trade for both sides...

OOC
You may trade a ressource to multiple costumers, just don´t make it too much of a fairytale, like the Cyrenaica supplying three major powers with grain...

	28-01-2005 19:54									#98
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Persia sends 2,600 immortals from the Gaza army to protect Egypt.

	28-01-2005 21:18									#99
	Got spare money?

Oh, I just love this new trade system Micha. It gives a whole new dimension to this NES.

	28-01-2005 21:30									#100
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I agree, I'm definately for it. It's cool!

	28-01-2005 21:40									#101
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Thanks!

Lydia to Carthage
Though we condemn you desecretion of the Oasis Siwa Oracle, our country is run by money, not by ideals. So our merchant guild has decided to offer both fabrics and pottery to your traders. The price may be subject to negotiation, while we´d prefer something along the lines of 10 talents each.

	28-01-2005 21:50									#102
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Crete to Egypt
Greetings!
Our economy suffers from the past wars, just like yours. That´s why we´d like to propose a trade agreement of mutual help!
Our marble is of finest quality, from the renowned quarries of Naxos. We´d be willing to sell it to you for 6 talents / turn!
In exchange, we would like to import paper worth 4 talents / turn.
The amount might increase as our merchants get wealthier, they´re too anxious right now to go for anything above 4t/t...

	28-01-2005 22:20									#103
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Any word from MG or the other cities? I hope our pigeons werent caught by eagles this time

	28-01-2005 22:42									#104
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Magna Graecia to Carthage
With the Romans growing dangerously strong, the equilibrium of powers has been destroyed. This is a threat to us, and it will one day become a threat for you, too.
We want to warn you, we´ve heard words of Roman Senators speaking jealously of the riches that lay in Carthage and Spain.
Act now, as it might be too late in a few years...

Massilia and Nicaea to Rome
Is that a threat? What makes your young nation believe to be the chosen rulers of what belongs to the glorious Greek civilization?
We want to establish good relations with Rome, as well as we condemn the happenings in Southern Italia, but we will not fold to your demands.

Adria to Rome
What has caused this turn in relations between us?
What have we done to you that you start threatening your ally?
We might as well hide behind the mighty king Pyrrhus, but we don´t, as we don´t want to engage in hostilities with our friends...

Emporion to Rome
We have no choice but to accept. We cannot defend ourselves against the mighty legions of Rome that have defeated the Gaul hordes! However we apply for full citizenship...

Ancona and Adria to Macedonia
Rome starts threatening us. As you are the successor of the old Attic Federation, we turn to you in need of assurances in case of war. Would you help us? If so, Rome might back down and peace can be ensured...

Last edited by Micha on 28-01-2005 at 22:48

	28-01-2005 22:46									#105
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While Messana seems willing to join the Roman cause, Pyrrhus and his allies have put up a strong and brutal regime of harsh punishments in case of rebelliousness. So Magna Graecia as a whole does not respond to the Roman envoy.
Instead the demands are repeated.

	28-01-2005 23:51									#106
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Rome to all Greek cities in Western Mediterranean

We have been a bit surprised that you have been unable to understand what has just happened here. Our intentions have until now been to form a coalition to defeat the Celtic hordes that are threatening all of our lives. We thought you would see the benefits from a united front of defence but it seems some of your leaders are unable to see beyond their narrow spectre of city politics.

Until recently we had only one enemy, and that was coming from the North. This has changed radically. A bandit army lead by a Macedonian supposedly renegade commander is threatening us from the South. Therefore we needed absolute security guarantees from you and so far none of you except Empoarians have given such guarantees. Even they have done so solely because they percieve us as too strong enemy.

Massilia, Adria and Nicaea have turned hostile towards us and seem to think they wouls have any chance to defend theirselves without our help against the Northern barbarians. This is of course a manifestation of how out of touch with reality their leaders are. This is sad news for us too since we have no chance but to disarm their armies with force if necessary.

What would you do if you were us? How would you react to this kind of extreme situation? Wouldent you do just as we are doing right now?

We will see you soon and teach you few lessons about political realities and the power of masses. We are very disappointed that you have pushed us over the egde.

This is Casus Bellorum.

SPQR

	29-01-2005 00:11									#107
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Massilia, Adria and Nicaea to Rome
You declare war on us? Now the children of the wolf have shown their true faces! To arms, brothers! May our brave hoplites show those wannabe overlords what made the Greek civilization the most powerful in the world!

Magna Graecia, Massilia, Adria and Nicaea to Macedonia
Brothers!
We are now in need of your assistance! As fellow Hellenes, you surely feel the strong bonds between our peoples! Come to save us from the Roman war machine, as you may well be next!

	29-01-2005 00:23									#108
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Egypt to Crete:
We'd be thrilled to begin trading with you. We're not, however, quite ready to accept the deal you've offered. Marble isn't especially useful to us at this time, so we'd like to begin by trading 4t marble for 6t paper. As much as we'd like to build more statues, at this time more than 4t marble seems like more than we could use. If this is acceptable, please come to Tanys as soon as you're ready.

Egypt to Magna Grecia:
We'd like to begin a trade deal with you. Would you be willing to trade 6t of your wine for 6t paper. Interested?

	29-01-2005 01:31									#109
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After studying more historical sources, I have added the following ressources to both map and stats:
A wine ressource in Apulia to Magna Graecia (map)
An oil ressource in Apulia to Magna Graecia (map + stats)
A salt ressource in Sardinia to Carthage (map + stats)

Though incomes and effectivenesses stay unchanged (have had the other factors absorb the impact of the new ressources)

Last edited by Micha on 29-01-2005 at 04:54

	29-01-2005 01:34									#110
	Put an end to popups!

Crete to Egypt
We appreciate to hear about your willingness to trade!
However, we must insist that the amount of marble traded must be worth at least 5 talents; We estimate your merchants will still make a fine profite out of it, a bargain so to say...
As for paper exports: We already stated that we cannot go for more than 4 talents a turn, as that is the break even point of our accountings... Everything above that limit will make the trade route inprofitable to us...

Magna Graecia to Egypt
We accept your offer to buy 6 talents worth of wine from our stocks.
However our current war budget leaves no room for imports... We simply cannot afford it...

	29-01-2005 05:55									#111
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Egypt to Crete: We'll accept your offer of 5 talents\turn marble and 4 talents\turn paper. We remember your statement that you'd consider buying more paper in the future, and hope that this trade route improves your economy to the point that you'll be able to increase your purchasing.

Egypt to Magna Graecia: We'll begin the import of wine, at 4 talents\turn. We hope this stimulates your economy, and we hope that when it does, you'll remember Egypt for your paper needs.

Last edited by appleciders on 29-01-2005 at 07:50

	29-01-2005 06:30									#112
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I'm not sure I'm clear on the trade system...Even though I have only one, for example, fish resource, can I sell it to another nation without a decrease in my stats? If so, to how many other nations can I sell to before it has an effect on my country?

	29-01-2005 06:43									#113
	Increase Your PM Length

OOC: Just don't be ridiculous in your exploitation of it. Selling huge quantities of fish to everybody isn't going to work, and Micha will tell you if you're going overboard. If you want to export more, invest in the resource, like the money I've put towards grain so I can export more of it. At least, that's my understanding.

Egypt to Bosporian Greeks:
We'd like to begin importing your furs and timber. We'd like to start by importing 4 talents\turn furs and 4 talents\turn timber. We'd also like to offer you the chance to import our paper.

Last edited by appleciders on 29-01-2005 at 07:41

	29-01-2005 06:43									#114
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oh noes, micha hates techno

	29-01-2005 06:50									#115
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To: Sparta
From: Carthage

We wish to purchase honey from you. For what amount would you say?

To: Lydia
From: Carthage

We are already being supplied fur from the Romans, so how about 7 talents for pottery?

	29-01-2005 07:21									#116
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Macedonia to Rome :

This is not helping relations between our countries. We propose a compromise like the following (or something similar) :

The free cities of the north clearly pose no threat to Rome, as they rejected Pyrrhus' hostile rule and demonstarted in both word and action for long years that they were friends of Rome. So those cities would retain their independence and armies, perhaps elect to reduce their militaries as a gesture of goodwill. Rome could send special envoys to the cities to help coordinate regional military defense, and both Rome and Macedonia would guarantee the cities permanent freedom, protection, and alliance.
We ask both sides to accept this proposal or suggest a reasonable counterproposal. It is much more advantageous to all sides involved than the path that is about to embarked upon.

	29-01-2005 08:01									#117
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Egypt to Macedonia:
We haven't recieved an answer about the possibility of you exporting fish to us, or the possibility of your importing our paper. Is there any interest?

	29-01-2005 08:08									#118
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I'm sure they are....

	29-01-2005 08:12									#119
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Next update, a very special Carthaginian soldier will be entering the army. His name, the very famous General's son, HANNIBAL BARCA.

Last edited by Lord Nuclear on 29-01-2005 at 08:18

	29-01-2005 08:13									#120
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

ok. we wish he wasent being teased at school.